Shadow Genesis

First topic message reminder :

Hi all.

This topic is about a new mod that is being created by me and my brother, Mario Maniac. Yeah, he is still alive, in case you are in doubt.

First of all, I feel like I should say that this game, like its predecessors, is based in nazis and demons. I understand some of you may not like the idea, but we do. Also, by predecessors, I mean its prequels, all of them. This one is centered in the same story and it involves elements of previous gameses. 

If you ever played an addon made by us or heard someone criticizing our style, you probably know how things are going to be developed. We enjoy a challenge, and we also enjoy the fact that this won't be a game that you will be able to finish in a couple hours.

Anyway, we've been working on it for a long time now, although we didn't work that much due to other stuff and whatever. Sprites, sounds, coding and all that stuff, except for maps and music, are already done. Like I said before, there are many level specific codings that are obviously yet to be done.

We didn't decide yet how many levels the game will have yet. We are just going on with the story, until it is the right time to end. I also think it is worth mentioning the maps are all 128x128. We always thought it was bad to have so many small claustrophobic rooms, but that was the only way to make big nice levels.

Obviously, I'm not spoiling much yet, but I can guarantee the game has a bunch of never seen before features.

After that wall of text, here are a bunch of screens, to show something that has been made already. I'll post more screens from time to time in here.

Official Beta Screenshots (latest released version as of now):

Shadow Genesis Part 1 Beta Download: (The forum inserts this adfly thing on the link. I can't do anything about that, so don't complain.)
As bugs are found and fixed, I'll upload new patches here. You should download them as soon as possible. I'll also write what the bug is about.

Important things before you download this:

• You can press 'L' to see the ratios so far in the game.
  
• The game is incomplete. What you will download is a demo version, which corresponds to the first part of a two part game. This part contains 39 levels. Whenever the full version is released, you WILL lose your savegame.
  
• It's probably best not to play this on "I am Death Incarnate" unless you want some big suffering.
  
• WolferCooker succeeded in completing the game, but that doesn't mean there are no bugs. In fact, I can almost guarantee there are.
  
• If you get stuck somewhere and you feel like there is a bug that prevents you from completing it, it's better if you post it here so everyone can see it, and we can fix it if it's really a bug. If it's not a bug, I won't spoil anything and I won't give you the solution.
  
  
• There are no secret levels for now, although some "mechanisms" that would enable you to get to them are already in the game. That means there can be keys/switches/things that have no objective the way the game is now.
  
• Although this should be obvious, READ the ReadThis section.
  
• Achievements and mementos aren't in the game yet, even though the ReadThis describe them. Don't mind that, for now.
  
  

Full package (this has been updated and now links to the official beta version):
https://www.mediafire.com/file/nnzijaw3aaehu13/Shadow_Genesis_Pt._1_-_Official_Beta.rar/file


Patches (no need to download any of them anymore. All of the patches have been included in the official beta version. The list of patches has been kept here purely as a log).

:

Full Game (upcoming, not to be released anytime soon):

Small spoiler: Soul Orb Entrance





That's it for now. Cya.

SEVERAL? Try hundreds when you're going through it blind.

We warned to play in the easiest mostly because we didn't play the game as a whole. After we finish it the second part, we will play everything in a higher difficulty to add more health, if necessary.
Still, the hardest parts of the game were tested in Death Incarnate. Although some of them took a whole afternoon to be beaten, it was possible. In theory, the game should not be impossible to beat in any difficulty level.
And if you go to your deathlog, press ctrl+G in the last death and you will now how many times you died.

Mario. Check your PM. It's not a new idea by any means, but Mega knows about it.

So, talking about what this topic is actually about, we are working on the second part of the game, but it's not like it's two different games, everything from the first part will be contained in the full game.

When we decided to release the beta version, we decided to leave some features out of that version on purpose. That's because you guys need to have some motivation to endure the agony that was to get through those levels once again . In other words, some things on the first part will be revamped and improved for the full version, so that it'll be worth the while even for those who played the beta version.

I posted one single screenshot on the first page, showing one of the improvements reserved for the full game

DOUBLE STACKED WALLS!!! OMFG!!! Now it really looks more ZDoomish! Good stuff! Down side to it is those ceiling chainguns will look too high to eliminate. It isn't ZDoom where you can move the camera up and down.

Hope you got a good solution for that.

Don't get confused. There's no vertical movement. That's purely aesthetical. In chaingun's case, you would be able to shoot it like in Doom, without really aiming at it, meaning the chaingun would still be in the same plane that you are, but its sprites would appear near the ceiling. Wouldn't really change anything.

Always knew that, but it would get a bit confusing if the chaingun goes out of view when you're up against it and then all of a sudden you can't move forward because it's a static enemy.

Based on the screenshot, that must truly be from the last secret stage, thus we see dead bodies of the Doom II zombies scattered around and those furnitures.

That's a possibility

Yeah, it is a screenshot from one of the secret levels, although not the last one. Particularly, I enjoy making secret levels since that's the one place you can do whatever crazy thing you want with much weaker restrictions. That level is something totally out of the ordinary in terms of Wolf gameplay. It's an RPG-like level, in which you'll get to know the backstory of some events that could pass unnoticed otherwise. Given the huge amount of work it has been giving comparing to regular levels, I expect it to be worth the while.

I've just downloaded the beta and I have to say, it is quite an amazing so far.  I'm only on level 2, and since I'm mostly a perfectionist, I'd like to go for 100% ratios in kills, secrets, and treasure. 

I may replay level 1 to find that last treasure since that is keeping me from getting 100%. Based on what wolfcooker has mentioned, perhaps in the ambush site there are all the remaining treasures, and one has to survive enough to get all 3, as I only got 2 there before dying.

Also, on level 2, the blue colored room is unique and looks like a secret area, however, I am struggling to find a way to get into that room.  I'm guessing there must be some special event in order to get into that room or perhaps a pushwall of some sort? I have pushed all the walls around the level and still am not able to find it and upon completing the level, I know there are at least two more secrets, some more treasure, and a couple more enemies... Maybe I have done something wrong, but I don't know. 

Also, some suggestion about the weaponry is that the Sturmgewehr 44 is one of my favorite weapons in wolf3d mods, however, there isn't a weapon like that (one that fires an intermediate round, stronger than the MP40 and weaker than a rifle) even though there are waffen ss as enemies in the game.  Another aspect I suppose could be useful is having the rifle to be scoped for sniping (I haven't reached that point in the game yet, so I could be wrong about that).

Milanor, to reach the blue colored rooms, go to the long greeny sewer hall. At the end of the room right side, go to the left side, and you'll see the blue key door. Stand at the door and push the left wall. There is a teleporter inside, and... Voila. You'll enter the blue room.

Milanor wrote:I've just downloaded the beta and I have to say, it is quite an amazing so far.  I'm only on level 2, and since I'm mostly a perfectionist, I'd like to go for 100% ratios in kills, secrets, and treasure. 

I may replay level 1 to find that last treasure since that is keeping me from getting 100%. Based on what wolfcooker has mentioned, perhaps in the ambush site there are all the remaining treasures, and one has to survive enough to get all 3, as I only got 2 there before dying.

Also, on level 2, the blue colored room is unique and looks like a secret area, however, I am struggling to find a way to get into that room.  I'm guessing there must be some special event in order to get into that room or perhaps a pushwall of some sort? I have pushed all the walls around the level and still am not able to find it and upon completing the level, I know there are at least two more secrets, some more treasure, and a couple more enemies... Maybe I have done something wrong, but I don't know. 

Also, some suggestion about the weaponry is that the Sturmgewehr 44 is one of my favorite weapons in wolf3d mods, however, there isn't a weapon like that (one that fires an intermediate round, stronger than the MP40 and weaker than a rifle) even though there are waffen ss as enemies in the game.  Another aspect I suppose could be useful is having the rifle to be scoped for sniping (I haven't reached that point in the game yet, so I could be wrong about that).

Good to know you're liking it so far. About the 100% on level 1, yeah, you really have to pick all the treasures. This has been discussed between me and Mario, and that will most likely be changed to something better for the final version, as we didn't really like it the way it is now.

As for the blue room, brickgolem is right, but it's is good that it has already crossed your mind that there could be one special event or trigger. That will be true at some points in later levels.

There is the sten smg, which is the closest weapon to the description you made, I suppose. Currently, you can't use the scope of the rifle. Particularly, I never could find a situation where this seemed like it made some difference in the aiming, but I'm not sure about how useful this could be to others.

Just as a last comment, it would probably be better if you weren't too much of a perfectionist (I know that could be hard ), since there are some levels which is currently not possible to achieve 100% due to the removal of some event triggers related to the secret levels, for example, which are not included in this version. I realize this is not ideal, but, well

Thanks Luigi, I'll take your advice to heart and also I won't be aiming for absolute 100% in all the categories as this is still beta and there could be more changes before the final version is released. 

By the way, I'm playing on the Bring 'em on difficulty (2nd hardest difficulty) so far since I think it would be easier than the hardest setting but more interesting than the easiest difficulty.  Speaking of which, when I was a newbie to the wolf3d series, or old school fps in general, I often played at the easiest difficulty (this was when I was about 9-10 years of age) but after learning about how to strafe and use choke points from Blake Stone and other games, I've started to almost always play onf Death Incarnate difficulty in almost all mods, the exception is Paal Olstad's A Doll's House as that mod is puzzle tricky and oftenly you'd have to use the knife in many cases leading really bloody war of attrition battles with the enemies. 

But anyways, sorry for going on a tangent, but yes I shall play the future levels with your advice in mind and ease off the perfectionist approach.

Just got to level 8 now, and so far, here are a few suggestions I have for the mod. 

One of the boss fights is a bit too intense, especially early in the game, he draws too fast, and I've had a hard time beating that boss (I did beat it after many tries and having to lure it out of close quarters), maybe if I had a stronger weapon like a rifle or rocket launcher, perhaps, but maybe in the final version it could be toned down a bit by having it draw a bit slower or do less damage from a farther distance (he hits too hard even at moderate distances, enough to wipe me out quickly).  This is played on the Bring 'em On difficulty so I'd imagine at Death Incarnate it would be even more hellish. 

Also, if you can include this in the final version, having a message pop up that says you've found a secret area or something along those lines that would be great

Since I'm still relatively early in the game, I have to say it's quite good and challenging so far, and I will let you guys know which parts should be toned down or changed for the final version.

It's been months since I've played it, but I'd highly recommend starting over and play it in the easiest difficulty. The later levels are extremely serious and it's gonna take very many retries to develop a strategy to get through each of them.

I warned you guys from the get go to play it in the easiest difficulty. I was frustrated as hell testing it and even wanted to give up altogether.

You're simply setting yourself up for major rage quits going through it for the first time on a difficult setting. To make it worse, I've told Mega Luigi a few times that the last 2-3 levels, the damage you receive from enemies somehow goes up. Like 15-30% damage from one hit in the EASIEST difficulty. If I were you, I'd develop a feel of the game first and develop a strategy to beat each level before going back and playing it again on a higher difficulty.

I'll probably try to get as far as I can on the harder difficulty and then when I reach a point where I just can't progress, I'll start a new file on easy mode then get to that point in the game and beat it.  Then with my older file (which is more difficult) I'll try to complete it.

Milanor wrote:Just got to level 8 now, and so far, here are a few suggestions I have for the mod. 

One of the boss fights is a bit too intense, especially early in the game, he draws too fast, and I've had a hard time beating that boss (I did beat it after many tries and having to lure it out of close quarters), maybe if I had a stronger weapon like a rifle or rocket launcher, perhaps, but maybe in the final version it could be toned down a bit by having it draw a bit slower or do less damage from a farther distance (he hits too hard even at moderate distances, enough to wipe me out quickly).  This is played on the Bring 'em On difficulty so I'd imagine at Death Incarnate it would be even more hellish. 

Also, if you can include this in the final version, having a message pop up that says you've found a secret area or something along those lines that would be great

Since I'm still relatively early in the game, I have to say it's quite good and challenging so far, and I will let you guys know which parts should be toned down or changed for the final version.

Hmm, I shall think about the suggestions for that boss. The way he deals damage from far away is most likely not to be changed, though, since it's related to the weapon he uses, and that weapon also has this property of dealing a big damage from big distances when you use it as well.

About the secret areas, that shouldn't be hard to do, yeah. Could be one possible change for the final version.

What WolferCooker says about the difficulty is also true. I could say that this game is many times harder on the easiest difficulty than original Wolfenstein at the hardest. If you succeed the game playing on Bring 'em on, that's definitely an accomplishment .

Oh you're talking about the boss that wields the dual dimalccias. Yeah best way to beat him is luring him out of the labs to the long corridor after the gold keyed door and then spamming the corridor full of flamethrower projectiles.

Yep, pretty much what I did, plus I like to use the sten gun and get 1-2 shots before ducking (I wish the rifle/panzerfaust was available sooner as that would have made things much much easier).  Also, he does move faster as the fight progresses on/palette seems to be brighter as well.

Hey Wolfercooker, did you ever get lost in the large levels? Sometimes I wish there was a map similar to Project X (Richter Belmont's mod) and/or maybe forbid the function for higher difficulties, but I don't know, I will admit there are times where I get a little bit lost on the levels myself (I suppose I could use paper and pencil beside my computer to map out the floor but that does take a lot of effort).

A few compliments I have is the overall level design, it's almost like a puzzle, and one path leads to a long long path further down and depending on which path is taken, the other path must be taken later on. 

Also, the complexity of the level makes it a pretty good mod along with various rooms, like there is a lab, then a dungeon, an eating quarters or dorm, a hallway, a supply room, etc.

Possible bugs?
So far, I'm on level 11 now, there might be a bug where the enemy (officers, high ranking officers, and SS) walking on the explodable/destroyable barrels, this was near the beginning of the level in the green colored brick walls.  

Another one I've noticed is that the portable medkits carry over from each death, even though when I die, I always reload so that doesn't really affect me, but if that is a real bug, then I suppose it wouldn't hurt to point it out.

Progress so far..
Also, in the knife maze, I don't know if this was intended, but the hit radius of the knives are a bit large and while they don't do a lot of damage each hit, they can be extremely lethal in groups or even being hit repeatedly.  A small suggestion I might make is making the hit radius a bit smaller, like having to walk into it rather than just being 1-1.5 squares away and still get hit, or maybe make them destroyable like barrels or columns. I suppose this was the way it was intended though.

As far as the difficulty, yeah it does start to ramp up quite a bit, and just for the record, some people who might be playing on a pistol start, some levels it's almost impossible to do so.  

A suggestion for future would be LP'ers of this mod
If by any chance Balames87 is on here or is in contact with you guys, I do have a suggestion for him along with anyone who is seeking to LP this mod someday and record it. 

Since each level, especially after the first few levels, are rather long, large, and complex along with much intense fighting at times, puzzle solving, and trap avoidance, I would suggest recording in segments, then piecing them together.  It would take many tries to actually beat a level and understand the best way to progress effectively.  I know some LP'ers like to run through the level without saving and reloading, as well as completing it quickly, but for this mod especially, I would suggest that they would be saving and reloading a lot, mainly because sometimes things don't go to plan, or they are farming armor/health item drops, getting hurt a bit too much in other situations, etc. 

So for example if someone were to record a level, I would say record until they get to a point where things can go wrong (usually a white skull area but then brown skull area where they can't save but can reload), then save it and stop the recording.  Then when the figure out the next part, do MANY takes and then from the best one, discard the failed attempts and then append the successful segment onto the clip.  After that, then continue the level as usual until the next critical segment of the level.  If doing commentary, I would probably explain things or have annotations on video.  In short, I would treat each level like several levels of wolf3d in a different mod, and do them in parts.

Personally, I don't plan on recording myself playing, partly due to technical issues and demands, the time commitment (especially for really smooth runs of the levels), but also all the editing and reloading, redoing parts of a level.  The amount of time and energy spent would be massively enormous just to get through the game, let alone recording, having a smooth run, then editing all of that.  As much as I love playing wolf3d mods, for me to go way beyond the whole 9 yards, I'd almost have to be getting significant amount of return to make it worthwhile, otherwise I'm mostly just playing it casually then. (I've spent almost 2 hours in a level once and that does not include reloading and saving, so imagine that for 39+ levels, then eventually 60.) Furthermore, I do want to give huge thanks to Balames87 for all his dedication and recording of many many wolf3d mods, as well as Lingyan203 for his most recent LP's of other wolf3d mods.
This is just food for thought for those out there should they ever choose to in the future...

Indeed sometimes enemies walk over destructible objects. That mainly happens because they are also enemies, and sometimes enemies walk over each other. This has actually bothered me for quite some time already, I just never seem to remember to do anything about it.

The portable medkits shouldn't remain after a death. We must have forgotten to reset the counter after a death.

You may be right about the radius of those damaging objects, although changing that now could have many consequences considering all the times we used it during the game. Not sure that would possible. The same goes for making them destructible (in which case, we would also need new sprites for that).

Thanks for letting me know about that

No problem, and since you mentioned about the game being doable in all difficulties, maybe there are some parts that should be nerfed a bit more I'll let you know when I reach the end of the mod of which parts should be nerfed a bit in order to complete the game even in the hardest difficulty.  Still currently playing in Bring 'em On difficulty so far.

Speaking of the damaging objects, since making them destroyable or changing the radius would be too much of a hassle, maybe lowering the damage or slowing down the damage per tick could be a small suggestion perhaps?

Speaking of maps, Milanor, it could have been useful since we talking about the map with the size 128x128. But I managed to find where I'm going through each level, thanks to all walls/ceiling/floor textures in different colors and forms. Like you said, each levels have various rooms (labs, dungeons etc.), but since I'm not getting lost each level, I think maps is no necessary at all.

Balames87, which you mentioned about, I consider him to be the greatest wolf3d mods reviewer and narrator on YouTube of all time. The way he speaks and explain during the gameplay makes a pleasure to watch it, as well as he have some hilarious humors up in his sleeves. However, he's focusing on 100% ratio (kills, secrets and treasures) and play on highest difficulties ("I am Death Incarnate"), so I'm not sure if he would do this on video, unless he plays it on Livestream. He played "Operation Serpent" on Livestream not long ago, and that's no 100% ratio at all on the video, so maybe it's possible he would do it.

But I recommend him to play first "Project Verwustung", then "Operation Weltmeisterung", "Weltgericht", "The Lost Relic" and finally "Shadow Genesis", thus to the concept of the whole plot.

Lingyan203 had also some great wolf3d mods on YouTube, also 100% ratio and highest difficulty, but now he's focusing on Doom II mods.

I'm on level 12 as of now, and wolfercooker, do you know where to find C-Epsilon?  When I'm at the mixing room, I am unable to see C-Epsilon as an option.

Milanor, I've also had a problem with the mixing puzzle first time I've played it, so I've asked WolferCooker for help some months ago. The help I've received, you can head on this topic on page 3 to find the solution.

As for the C-Epsilon, it could be either located in the greenish sewer in the mutant cell or where a Ubermutant is resting, or it may be located in the lab area where you find the only Skull Mutant.

Big advice: Examine all rooms, kill all enemies, find all items to be provided for the puzzle, find secrets and read information from all readable bookcases.

I found the C-Epsilon, it was dropped by a scientist in one of the labs.

Also, I've noticed an error in wolfercooker's instructions, to obtain the red fang oil, it would be distillation and then oil-water separation.

Yeah, reducing the damage would be possible. That's something to be thought of.

As far as this puzzle goes, you really should be able to figure it all out using the informations provided on the level, but I guess I can understand it can be a bit of a pain in the ass.

Hey Brick, I wish there was a way to change the percentages of the mixtures by setting manually number of that compound, then discard the other one so that way it wouldn't be a hassle, to keep juggling through the compounds with erratic percentages. 

As of now, I'm on the very final part of the puzzle, I know the correct percentages for each of the compounds, but I have A LOT of trouble trying to get every single compound to the same quantity.

Also, I just got Mega Luigi's response via PM so I will try again later tonight.

This final part of the mixing puzzle it took for me two hours to figure out how to resolve, as wolfercooker told me that I've to find out by myself.

I would like to help you, but in danger that Mega may chastise me for giving you solution, I'll think you should ask him.

I'm on level 14 now, just about to go to level 15, and I've found another bug.  On level 14 where the mustard gas takes away 1% or so of your health every few seconds, you don't actually die when your health reaches 0% by environmental effects and the health actually glitches in display (A glitched sprite showing a gold key and BJ's head bobbing up and down).

Also, throughout the game, I have forgotten to mention this, but is the knife intended not to be a silent weapon? In certain mods, the knife is treated as a silent weapon, which gives it a significant advantage in dispatching enemies 1-on-1 and also can conserve ammo.  As I was playing since the knife isn't a silent weapon anymore, it's only use is very niche now, usually at choke points and with enemies that have a slow draw and flinch a lot.

Just wondering, on level 14 is there a way to get access into the room behind the portcullis that contains the dimalicia ammo, dimalicia pistol and a few treasures inside? (The room contains a portrait of Hitler smoking a cigarette) So far I've gotten 100% kills, 100% secrets, and only 84% treasure .  Maybe there is something event trigger that is supposed to happen or a way to break or teleport into that room?  

Maybe I might just might move on and then someday come back to it, but if it is physically possible to access that room (via teleports, event triggers, or something else), I'd like some confirmation of it.

Thanks for mentioning the mustard gas bug, that will be fixed.

About the knife, well, I can't say we are proud of the way it is right now. I agree it should be a silenced weapon. There may be other changes to it for the final version later.

And yeah, that place is accessible, but, after it closes, there is no way to enter there anymore. You should hear the sound of the gate closing at some point after the cutscene shows the place.

In regards to the knife being silent, I don't know if it would be too much trouble to implement it, but here is my suggestion based on a code tutorial by Paal Olstad years ago:

For the damage actor method (which is when the enemy is hit), madenoise = true; would not be set to true or the statement removed from that part of the switch or if/else statement.  This means if the knife hits the actor or enemy (including barrels and breakable objects since those are treated as enemy actors), it would not make noise to alert the nearby enemies.
Also, on the weapon/gun attack method, (if the knife is not silent by default-- though I think it should be), then removing the madenoise = true; statement from it would help, which means using the knife like striking the air would not make any noise to the surrounding room(s).

On another thought... I'm thinking of maybe the mutant serum/syringes should be silent too as throwing the needles doesn't make a lot of noise

It's pretty easy to make it silent, there's not many changes involved. That suggestion you gave is exactly what must be done to achieve that, thanks for it.

And true about the syringes, I hadn't thought of that either.

Lemme know if you think of any other possible improvements

I think I may have discovered another glitch, I'm not sure.  When I picked up an artifact of decay (1st one) and haven't cleared it's effect yet (picking up a healing item and increase health), then picked up a cursed helmet I automatically die.  If I remember correctly, isn't the third demonic treasure supposed to kill BJ instead of the second one?

Yeah, actually you have found yet another bug. It's not really about picking three demonic treasures to die, actually. This is true for the artifact of decay. If you pick three of them, you're dead. The thing here is that the cursed helmet was supposed to increase the level of your decay (in case you were already decaying, obviously), but it increased it by two levels every time, which resulted in your instant death. That was the original intention behind this treasure.

Funnily enough, that part of the code was copied straight from The Lost Relic, meaning this has been somewhat "bugged" since the dawn of time . This proves that there is always room for improvement.

Oh wow, I didn't expect that I would find obscure bugs, but I'm glad to be of help
Anyways, would setting the level of decay for the cursed helmet to only increase by one fix the bug?

I'm glad you found it too

Yeah, it would. That will be done right now.

And here I thought all those years that was intentional.

WolferCooker wrote:And here I thought all those years that was intentional.

Somehow I guess it was. That code comes from the dark ages when ignorance and weirdness were all over the code. Good old times.

Just cleared level 17, wow defending the switches in the last part was painful...  A small suggestion for that would be to add a timer or notification so one would know how much longer to defend the switches and move on.  It took many tries because if I didn't defend long enough, I would fail the mission and die, but if I do defend longer than usual, then it's most likely I could get overwhelmed by the sheer amount of enemies. 

Maybe having a bit fewer enemies might be helpful too, but other than that, I do love the cutscenes as well as camera panning over to see what the enemy does.

The storyline so far is pretty interesting, though I may slow down on the mod for the next few days or so because I have an final exam coming up soon as well as some assignments to finish this weekend.

Currently on level 18, does anyone have trouble with the boss in that level? I'm thinking that it would be very tough to win that battle as there are multiple bosses on that floor and sometimes I just can't outrun them all, plus if you stay in one area, you'll get slaughtered.

I know wolfercooker mentioned that one should play on an easiest difficulty, but I still feel that I take too much damage from the Dark Inquisitor along with his minions and the other bosses on the hallway.  I really wish an artifact of rage or at least an artifact of invincibility will come into play here though I don't see any of these in this level .  Currently, he moves very fast, there isn't much of a place to run and hide, all of his other minions can easily kill me off.  If I were to start over now, that's pretty much 40+ hours or more already gone, not counting the amount of save+loads and redoing lots of parts, so I am on the Bring em on difficulty (which means I take about 65% of enemy damage).  This is even harder than the Overkill secret level in Spear Resurrection (2011 edition), imho. 

If this isn't the hardest boss fight in the game, well then I don't really know what is... I'd hate to restart the level and go through all of that mess again (it took a long time to get through all of that). Those grenade launching guys are so dangerous... (They do look cool though along with their voices) and in one part, it was really really gut wrenching, as you have a very small area to move in, and have to kill them quickly before they launch their grenades (remember small space and lots of grenades exploding = instant death regardless of difficulty...)

Good to know you're enjoying the story so far.

And yeah, that's one tough battle. That's one of the situations I tested on the hardest difficulty to be sure it was possible to complete. I admit it took me quite some time to succeed, but it is indeed possible. There are no artifacts to help you there, you're right about that, since they would make the boss fight too easy, probably. I'll leave to you to decide later if that's the hardest battle or not, but I can tell you there are pretty difficult battles that involve no bosses as well. I won't really say it's the best way, but, if I remember correctly, I concluded that it was best to focus on killing the minions first other than killing the Inquisitor.

If you really think there is no way of killing the boss in that difficulty in your savegame as it is now, I could change your gameplay difficulty so that you wouldn't lose your game, but I also won't restore it to Bring 'em On after you kill the boss, meaning you would continue to play on one of the other easier difficulties. That's up to you, though, just a suggestion. That's why the was recommended to be played on the easiest difficulty, I feel it's somehow hard to know how difficult the game is without playing it, and I guess it's a bit more than expected.

I also liked pretty much the result of the grenade launcher guys. It's more original than most of the other enemies, and it has such a potential.

I shall try again with that in mind as well as some other hit and run strategy, while prioritizing the deadliest of enemies and then all the projectile based enemies on the lower part of the list.

Level 18 boss:

When the boss goes at full speed after you, your best bet is to run around the arena away from him and give each enemy damage after each pass. 

Use your heavy weapons (chaingun, Nordenfelt, Rockets, Blitz) to take down the enemies. When it's just you and the boss, use the rifle unless you have spare ammo from the heavy weapons. There might be times he slows down and whenever he does, take advantage of it. When he comes at you full speed again, run around the arena again to gain some distance from him and then shoot at him a bit before running away from him again.

Best place to shoot him is if you stand before each opened door in each corner of the arena so you can distance from him again right away.

Should take about 35-40 rifle shots if you didn't give the boss damage early on. To help you out, when the battle starts right away shoot a Panzerfaust at him, then run around the arena.

Best advice is to run counter clockwise around the arena. Kill the Cyber Trooper and Mecha Trooper with Blitzgewehr, two Lopers and a Ultramutant with Nordenfelt and two Kull Warrior with Chaingun. Then focus on the Dark Inquisitor with Panzerfaust, Rockets and Rifles. Once the boss is killed, then kill the Iron Knight with Flamethrower and Chain gun.

Yeah I think killing off the CyberTrooper would be a great idea, so far I've used my Rockets early in the battle, mainly to get rid of the CyberTrooper, then getting rid of the other enemies.  Lopers are very annoying mostly, I tend to use flames on them since they do lots of continuous damage (low but hurts a lot over time, in an AOE like fashion). 

I have to keep in mind not to get trapped or I can die very, very easily. Still trying to find the best weapons to kill each boss/minion effective and quickly while having enough for the late fight. 

I do believe that when at least most of the chaingun bosses and the ultramutant are dead, it makes the battle more manageable.

Update: I've gotten fairly close at least two times, but the last 50-60 attempts all end up with deaths. I'm tempted to just throw in the towel and go on easy mode, but then I wouldn't be able to see the rest of the game in it's intended difficulty... I'm coming to the conclusion that it must be something to do with my strategy or weapon of choice.  I started the battle off going and killing off the cybertrooper mostly used rockets because otherwise it the main boss could catch up to me and kill me quickly from behind, then I've killed off the lopers as quickly as possible (chain gun for the high damage per second), and I've also used nordenfelt to deal with the Kull warriors, then I die near the end on fighting the Inquisitor mostly by running into the Iron Knight

My current observation isn't that the enemies deal too much damage, but it may be how I approach it.. Maybe there is only one way to make it work.  I've tried to run and shoot at enemies each pass, but more often than not, I often get blocked on one passage by another enemy.  However, I've thought about thinning out the enemies a bit on each wing, but then again, it leads to getting surrounded again... So I don't know, maybe I do have to kill all the chaingun based enemies first, or so not sure...

Edit: I finally beat the level, oh my god that was intensely hard, I must of got lucky a few times, those direct attacks and running around to kill off the enemies... I'm just glad I got the level done.  I do love the cutscene though and I can understand why this is a hard battle because this would mark the end of the first phase (Nazi and mutant labs), then the next part would feature demons much more (along with Nazis and mutants here and there).  Thank god I didn't have to pansy out and use the lowest difficulty, and now I can continue with the game (until I reach another super hard demon boss.. or maybe he'll be easier, but I guess I'll just play and find out! )

So my thoughts on level 18 is that there are times where there are near ammo shortage like low on bullets, fuel, rockets, electricity, (one near the beginning, one in the middle during teleporting and having to go across various environments, and also in the demonic part).  Also, in the area with demolishers right after teleporting, I would say one would need to have many rockets or at least a larger area to maneuver around because those grenades hurt a lot (then multiple ones-- instant death even over full hp, especially with lower armor.) Other than that, I think level 18 is pretty good, just making sure the supply and ammo is full.  Now granted I haven't found all the secrets as my secret ratio is rather poor , since in this beta I focused on getting 100% (or near) of kills and then treasures is closely tied with secrets so that.

Now that I'm on level 19, I can continue the storyline and see the new enemies there. 



I do have a few questions though, especially for the final version (in the late future).  


Will I miss out on some content or rewards (like the same ending, the same cutscenes or content in the game) if I play on the easiest difficulty? I plan to get 100% in all categories when the full version comes out, so I know I will have to go through even the hardest parts of the game, and for the sake of my sanity and best interest, I will most likely select the easiest difficulty.  Maybe the hardest difficulty is only for bragging rights and nothing more (I hope)?

(There was another mod where I played on the easiest difficulty and it's A Doll's House by Paal Olstad, but that was because there were many things that could hurt me, traps, and sometimes no health for a segment, didn't have enough good weapons to fight and had to melee oftenly leading to bloody encounters with the enemies.. Already in the easiest setting I was having a bit of a hard time so that mod was one of the few mods I played on easiest difficulty, but all other ones I try to go all out on I am Death Incarnate difficulty.)

Also when the full version comes out, does the other wolf3d LP'ers such as Lingyan, SSGMaster, and Balames87 have permission to LP on the game?  I would imagine the problem here could be spoilers and the like, but other than that, the logistics of recording and editing would time consuming (even after they learned the level and all it's secrets).  

Personally I don't plan on recording (due to preventing spoilers) and also the amount of time for recording, editing, logistics to do so is just too much.  As wolfercooker once said earlier in this thread, that he wanted to show a part of it, but it was becoming too tedious for him as well and I agree with him.  Plus, I would imagine the viewing experience for the audience would suck if it was save+reload die rinse repeat...