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    Original game challenges (Now loosened somewhat with four to choose from!)

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    WolfForever
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    Original game challenges (Now loosened somewhat with four to choose from!)

    Post by WolfForever on Sun Jan 06, 2013 9:09 am

    Well having played the originals so many times, I was thinking of the way I could play them once again to challenge myself the absolute most (yet not have it be impossible or virtually impossible), and this is the idea I came up with.

    Have you beat every original Wolfenstein 3D/SoD level:

    1. On I am Death Incarnate;
    2. Starting the level from scratch (pistol and 8 bullets);
    3. Without ever saving or restoring a game;
    4. Using no secrets (for extra items) besides ones that are absolutely mandatory; and
    5. In under that par time?

    That is precisely the challenge I am trying in accomplish, and so far I've done it for all of Episode 4 as well as E6L1-E6L4. While Episode 6 is without a doubt the hardest episode overall, the hardest level I've come across to do this with, IMO, has been E4L8. That level is quite long for a par of just 4:30 to begin with, and it is VERY packed with resistance. In fact, I often had to use my score as a way to tell me whether or not I had left any stragglers behind that would sneak up and kill me later on. After too many tries to count, I beat it with SEVEN SECOUNDS to spare.

    Part of the difficulty in that level is that you have to go a decent way it with just a pistol. While, on Episode 6, you'll see a machinegun and/or SS on each level relatively quickly, so you don't have to spend too long with just the pistol.

    Now I know E4L8 contains a shortcut that lets me skip a good third to half of the level, but it is a pushwall that is not mandatory, so for me it was off-limits. Not that I'd say it would be easy even if I had used it, because there is only really one area (the red brick one) that I can skip entirely using the shortcut.

    I also had to pull a strategy at the start of E4L5: knife my way through the dogs until I could reach the door, and then IMMEDIATELY close the door behind me leaving extra dogs behind. (Remember that I could not use the shotgun/ammo secret at the start, since that is not a mandatory secret.) I also had to use the non-mandatory (but non-secret) swastika-shaped room in the maze with the SS (for a machinegun), dinners, and ammo, before taking on the silver key resistance. And on E4L7 I had to go north at the start and get the chaingun BEFORE using the trick to jam the gold door with enemies. With just a pistol and fewer bullets, taking down that whole hoard and making sure I kill an enemy in the door is quite a challenge, I found. Yet in those two cases, I still managed to finish over a minute under par once I used the right strategy at the start (yes, I did E4L7 in around a minute even taking the detour to the chaingun at the start).

    The other levels so far - some were easier and others tougher, but those levels in E4 represent the toughest one (E4L8) and the two most strategic starts (E4L5 and E4L7) I've come across.


    Last edited by WolfForever on Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:09 am; edited 2 times in total

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    Re: Original game challenges (Now loosened somewhat with four to choose from!)

    Post by Guest on Sun Jan 06, 2013 9:59 am

    Hi Shane!


    Last edited by Chokster37 on Sat Feb 08, 2014 12:37 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Original game challenges (Now loosened somewhat with four to choose from!)

    Post by Dark_wizzie on Sun Jan 06, 2013 10:03 am

    Under par time it trickier for me, because then I have to know the level structure before I do the run-through.



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    Re: Original game challenges (Now loosened somewhat with four to choose from!)

    Post by WolfForever on Sun Jan 06, 2013 10:39 am

    @Dark_wizzie Yes knowing the level structure is very critical. You don't want to spend time in areas that won't ultimately give you (or lead you to) the goods you need! But after playing the game too many times to count, a lot of the important stuff sticks with you. Like the positions of keys, locked doors, and the exit. Like what enemies will be alerted, when, and how many of them there are. Like the easiest places (that take the least time) to find a decent cache of health/ammo when you're running low. And also level-specific needs. Like jamming the door on E4L7 with guards (but being sure to have more than a pistol first). Like that mandatory secret area on E4L5. Like the areas on that same level that will get you somewhere you can kill a lone SS and grab his machinegun before fighting for the silver key. Like what areas you can completely skip in a level (E4 certainly isn't shy on these, in a few cases it's a vast majority of the level!). And I'm sure there's others I haven't mentioned.

    @Chris I'm on Win7 and DOSBox though I don't think it matters if I'm using DOSBox or Wolf4SDL. And there's one of three way I make sure I start the level from scratch:
    1. If it's the first level of an episode, starting the episode.
    2. Coming from the level before and getting killed on purpose.
    3. wolf3d --tedlevel xy --hard (or wolf4sdl --tedlevel xy --hard) Where in Wolfenstein 3D, x is (episode - 1) and y is (level - 1), and in SoD xy together is (level - 1).

    I think my next challenge, after I've done each level individually, is to do an entire episode continuously, getting killed intentionally at the start of each level (except Level 1), without saving (that is actually a fifth requirement I missed), and without running out of lives. And in E4L8, I'd better be VERY sure I was fast enough or I have to do the whole episode over again!

    Not to mention, for the full episodes, I would add an additional requirement: I must play the ENTIRE episode, including both the secret and boss levels (though secrets one the boss levels that contain things it is not realistically possible to fight the boss without would qualify as mandatory). That secret level requirement would sure make E3L7 a doozy...

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    Re: Original game challenges (Now loosened somewhat with four to choose from!)

    Post by WolferCooker on Sun Jan 06, 2013 10:59 am

    Ugh... I HATE that pushwall maze level. You can trap yourself in if you're not careful.

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    Re: Original game challenges (Now loosened somewhat with four to choose from!)

    Post by WolfForever on Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:48 pm

    I don't think there's any level in the original you can trap yourself in except: E2L8 (and you have to be in the Aardwolf maze, which in itself why would you do that?), and E4L7 if you don't jam that first locked door open and then press the second eagle portrait. Now you can jam the parthway to the secret level on E3L7, but that's all. You can still go back and take the normal exit.

    If I recall (excluding boss/secret levels) the original game features mandatory secrets in E2L2, E3L8, E4L5, and E6L7, but all these except E4L5 are very obvious where the secret is. I don't count E4L7 since it's not hard to use the guards to keep that door open.

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    Re: Original game challenges (Now loosened somewhat with four to choose from!)

    Post by Guest on Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:25 pm

    Hi Ricardo!


    Last edited by Chokster37 on Sat Feb 08, 2014 12:37 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Original game challenges (Now loosened somewhat with four to choose from!)

    Post by Thomas on Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:36 pm

    Whenever I've made a map, a full mod, whatever, I try each map with only 8 bullets and a pistol, 'cause it gives me the impression on the mercy level. Can it be beat with 8 bullets and a pistol if I try really hard? Most of the time yes.

    As for the original Wolf maps, I'm sure I've tried my fair share of one-timers with just 8 bullets and a pistol but never as a full play. The chain gun is fairly easy to obtain quickly and fittingly in all episodes, so it could be fun to see...

    And no matter what game I play I always choose skill 4 to get the whole picture, the full experience.

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    Re: Original game challenges (Now loosened somewhat with four to choose from!)

    Post by WolfForever on Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:42 pm

    I just beat all of Episode 4 on my third try. No lives to spare but I did it! Boy E4L8 is tough, I was still within 20 seconds of the par using every trick under the sun I knew. My final time for the episode came in at an even 15:00. An average of 1:30 per level. (15:00 = 900 seconds/10 levels = 90 seconds = 1:30 per level).

    I had to do E4L8 and the boss with no spare lives (thank goodness I gained a life at the end of E4L8 or else how could I have died intentionally as the rule says at the start of E4L9?), imagine how pressured that felt!

    @Thomas When playing through mods even casually I by default try to scratch start all the levels. I'm actually surprised at how hard it is in some of the original levels (like E4L8). Having only a pistol is a TON of pressure (on E4L7 it is too much so, but luckily the par time allows me to sneak into the northern area where a chaingun is out in the open). As are those dogs on E4L5.

    I'm surprised at how much longer (and harder) E4L8 is versus E4L5. I used to think they were about on par. Aside from the mandatory and not so obvious secret on E4L5, that isn't so. Not giving a machinegun with all that ammo at the start of E4L8 is quite evil (though I can't say in words how thankful I have to be that I do have all that ammo right at the start to waste).

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    Re: Original game challenges (Now loosened somewhat with four to choose from!)

    Post by WolfForever on Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:01 pm

    Going forward, here are the biggest challenges I see coming my way in the remaining five episodes:

    Episode 1 - It's hard to remember precisely the best path through all those big mazey layouts (except Levels 1 and 9, of course). I still don't remember them perfectly.

    Episode 2 - Finding something that can give me a machinegun and avoiding sudden mutant deaths.

    Episode 3 - Remembering how to get through that maze in E3L7 to the secret exit, so I finish that level under par and satisfy the requirement of finding the secret level.

    Episode 5 - Nothing in this episode rings a big bell as being that tough, and many of the levels are quite short/compact, but if I was to guess, either E5L5, E5L7, or E5L8.

    Episode 6 - Don't know, all I do know is that it will not be an easy job!

    Spear of Destiny - Starting that first secret level. All those mutants and nothing but a pistol at first. Not making the exit in (or to) the second secret level impossible to get to. And just the fact that it's twice as many levels I have to play consecutively, and almost none of them are short. Episode 6 ought to be a reasonable training ground though.

    I'll also uncover the secret of which episode in Wolf3D is truly the shortest, if you truck it as fast as realistically possible. 15:00...that's a surprisingly short time for Episode 4 given how large some of the levels look. But it makes enough sense - my average level time was 1:30 and I probably made E4L1, E4L2, E4L3, E4L10, E4L4, E4L7, and E4L9 in close to that time or less. That's 7 of 10 levels. Obviously E4L8 pushed it way up. I can't do that thing in under 4 minutes!

    I wonder how fast E4 can be done if I do allow carrying from level to level and/or secrets that aren't mandatory but help considerably...

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    Re: Original game challenges (Now loosened somewhat with four to choose from!)

    Post by WolfForever on Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:28 pm

    Oh and @Chris: If you do try and succeed, would you mind posting when you succeed at an episode along with your entire episode completion time?

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    Re: Original game challenges (Now loosened somewhat with four to choose from!)

    Post by WolfForever on Sun Jan 06, 2013 4:25 pm

    Just did Episode 1, in my third try, again no spare lives. My time was 11:19, so since that is less than Episode 4, E4 will not be the shortest episode in the game. The most difficult things I found to be:

    1. Knowing (edit: by memory) the (edit: fastest) path to the key and then to the locked door (in all but the first and boss level);
    2. Making sure I didn't take the wrong door and alert extra guards and areas that aren't necessary and add to my time, decreasing my chance of getting under par; and
    3. By far the hardest: stragglers. Stragglers being enemies left in a room I thought I had empty. Can't count how many times I died or gave a ton of blood to them. Maybe I need to erect that score trick to remember if I killed every guard in an area (liked I did on E4L8).


    Last edited by WolfForever on Sun Jan 06, 2013 4:55 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Original game challenges (Now loosened somewhat with four to choose from!)

    Post by Dark_wizzie on Sun Jan 06, 2013 4:47 pm

    @WolfForever wrote:Just did Episode 1, in my third try, again no spare lives. My time was 11:19, so since that is less than Episode 4, E4 will not be the shortest episode in the game. The most difficult things I found to be:

    1. Knowing the path to the key and then to the locked door (in all but the first and boss level);
    2. Making sure I didn't take the wrong door and alert extra guards and areas that aren't necessary and add to my time, decreasing my chance of getting under par; and
    3. By far the hardest: stragglers. Stragglers being enemies left in a room I thought I had empty. Can't count how many times I died or gave a ton of blood to them. Maybe I need to erect that score trick to remember if I killed every guard in an area (liked I did on E4L8).
    That's some serious comittment to a game we've all played before!



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    Re: Original game challenges (Now loosened somewhat with four to choose from!)

    Post by WolfForever on Sun Jan 06, 2013 4:53 pm

    @Dark_wizzie How do you say it's serious commitment? Sorry - don't quite get it. Is it just the way I'm challenging myself, in and of itself?

    One edit: Instead of saying "knowing the path to the key and locked door", I should say, "knowing by memory the fastest path to the key and locked door".


    Last edited by WolfForever on Sun Jan 06, 2013 5:09 pm; edited 2 times in total

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    Re: Original game challenges (Now loosened somewhat with four to choose from!)

    Post by Dark_wizzie on Sun Jan 06, 2013 5:04 pm

    @WolfForever wrote:@Dark_wizzie How do you say it's serious commitment? Sorry - don't quite get it. Is it just the way I'm challenging myself, in and of itself?

    One edit: Instead of saying "knowing the path to the key and locked door", I should say, "knowing by memory the fastest path to the key and locked door".

    I also have a question about E2: I am committed to doing the secret level from scratch, but (on E2L10) would it be appropriate for me to consider the path to one of the SS guards (for a machinegun) and some ammo to be a mandatory secret? Or should it be done with no secrets and just a pistol?
    I dunno. I've never cared for the score I get from the game, or the par times. I just finish the game on highest difficulty and be done with it. I think replaying it over and over to acheive other goals requires some comitment to the game. Dunno.



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    Re: Original game challenges (Now loosened somewhat with four to choose from!)

    Post by WolfForever on Sun Jan 06, 2013 5:08 pm

    Par time is one of the most important things IMO! If I'm trying to get through a level with speed in mind and don't even beat the par time, that's like the ultimate definition of failure.

    I also have a question about E2: I am committed to doing the secret level from scratch, but (on E2L10) would it be appropriate for me to consider the path to one of the SS guards (for a machinegun) and some ammo to be a mandatory secret? Or should it be done with no secrets and just a pistol?

    Better said, has anyone on here beat E2L10, on the hardest skill, starting with a pistol and 8 bullets, and using NO secrets? I actually wonder what level would be harder to do that way: E2L10 or E1L9/E2L9 (actually, E1L9/E2L9 that way on any difficulty level).

    For that matter, how about E6L9 as well? (I already plan on trying to survive E6L9 with only the secret in the boss room, and am guessing it is going to be unimaginably hard, but hey, it's the last level! If that seems just impossible I might modify it to only the secret in the starting room. Either way I want to prove E6L9 can be done with only ONE secret!) What is the fewest number of the four total health/ammo secrets you've ever done E6L9 with (on the hardest difficulty and starting from scratch)?

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    Re: Original game challenges (Now loosened somewhat with four to choose from!)

    Post by Dark_wizzie on Sun Jan 06, 2013 5:29 pm

    @WolfForever wrote:Par time is one of the most important things IMO! If I'm trying to get through a level with speed in mind and don't even beat the par time, that's like the ultimate definition of failure.

    I also have a question about E2: I am committed to doing the secret level from scratch, but (on E2L10) would it be appropriate for me to consider the path to one of the SS guards (for a machinegun) and some ammo to be a mandatory secret? Or should it be done with no secrets and just a pistol?

    Better said, has anyone on here beat E2L10, on the hardest skill, starting with a pistol and 8 bullets, and using NO secrets? I actually wonder what level would be harder to do that way: E2L10 or E1L9/E2L9 (actually, E1L9/E2L9 that way on any difficulty level).

    For that matter, how about E6L9 as well? (I already plan on trying to survive E6L9 with only the secret in the boss room, and am guessing it is going to be unimaginably hard, but hey, it's the last level! If that seems just impossible I might modify it to only the secret in the starting room. Either way I want to prove E6L9 can be done with only ONE secret!) What is the fewest number of the four total health/ammo secrets you've ever done E6L9 with (on the hardest difficulty and starting from scratch)?
    I'd look at it more seriously if Wolfercooker said that, because he's finished The Lost Relic along with me. I don't recall any very difficult maps on Wolfenstein 3-D. I remember level 16 on SoD was pretty annoying if starting at 8 rounds though. You finish The Lost Relic and SHS, you're ready for anything.



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    Re: Original game challenges (Now loosened somewhat with four to choose from!)

    Post by WolferCooker on Sun Jan 06, 2013 5:42 pm

    You gotta finish Totenschlauss as well. It makes you better against bosses in the Wolf4SDL engine.

    Anyway. Forever, i'm not so sure you can survive E6L9 from scratch without all those secrets. Going up against hundreds of Nazis armed with hitscan weapons while you starting off 8 rounds with the pistol is suicide. There's not much health outside of secrets and the best weapon you'd have is the machine gun if you manage to take out all the nazis in the first room and not using the secret area there to get the chaingun.

    On top of that, the knife isn't programmed to be a silent weapon so stealth is out of the question as well. You'd have to spend most of your time luring and knifing all the soldiers in a corner behind a door or a narrow corridor while being wary that some will try to flank you from the other side.

    Assuming all the soldiers are dead, getting rid of Fatface is probably the easiest out of all if you were to play it your way.

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    Re: Original game challenges (Now loosened somewhat with four to choose from!)

    Post by WolfForever on Sun Jan 06, 2013 5:49 pm

    First of all one of my goals is to try and do it with experience I have already, not additional experience, though it'll always be a good suggestion if I can't.

    Re E6L9 that's why I might modify it to only the secret in the first room. That way I have something to work with right away but I have to make it last the entire time and have enough to spare to get Fatface. If that's still too hard, I'd add the Fatface room secret. The two secrets in the identical side hallways would be the last for me to add.

    Ultimately if it is not possible to realistically finish a level without a secret, even if it does not hold a key or the path to the finish, that secret will qualify as mandatory.

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    Re: Original game challenges (Now loosened somewhat with four to choose from!)

    Post by WolferCooker on Sun Jan 06, 2013 5:51 pm

    Well if that's the case, you're gonna have no choice but to lure and knife 2/3's of the soldiers if you want to save ammo for maybe the last third and Fatface.

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    Re: Original game challenges (Now loosened somewhat with four to choose from!)

    Post by Dark_wizzie on Sun Jan 06, 2013 5:58 pm

    @WolferCooker wrote:You gotta finish Totenschlauss as well. It makes you better against bosses in the Wolf4SDL engine.

    Anyway. Forever, i'm not so sure you can survive E6L9 from scratch without all those secrets. Going up against hundreds of Nazis armed with hitscan weapons while you starting off 8 rounds with the pistol is suicide. There's not much health outside of secrets and the best weapon you'd have is the machine gun if you manage to take out all the nazis in the first room and not using the secret area there to get the chaingun.

    On top of that, the knife isn't programmed to be a silent weapon so stealth is out of the question as well. You'd have to spend most of your time luring and knifing all the soldiers in a corner behind a door or a narrow corridor while being wary that some will try to flank you from the other side.

    Assuming all the soldiers are dead, getting rid of Fatface is probably the easiest out of all if you were to play it your way.
    I'll try E6L9 without secrets then.
    Totenschlauss looks to be very difficult. It doesn't play like Wolf3d does and I can't even find a way to use my mouse!



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    Re: Original game challenges (Now loosened somewhat with four to choose from!)

    Post by WolfForever on Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:00 pm

    When I said "not possible" I should really say "not possible without doing something that would qualify as ludicrous". Isolating myself in the starting secret (the one and only place I could, if that's the only secret I allow myself to use) and corner-stabbing 2/3 of the enemies to death would qualify as ludicrous IMO.

    And well, I took a look and I already know I'm going to need at least the start secret, I don't think I can do the second room without it. Four doors for enemies to flood in from + six Officers + four SS + four brown guards + all fourteen enemies are alerted immediately no matter what I do + I start the fight with just a pistol and not much ammo + nowhere to hide = I'm dead.

    Not to mention, I know in the side corridors I have to alert no fewer than a dozen Officers and SS each, all at once. Again, I'm dead if I don't have a solid hiding spot and a lot of supplies in hand.

    In fact, it's not true that there isn't much health/ammo that isn't in a secret: There is, looking in the editor, in fact NO health and ammo that's not in a secret in the entire level.


    Last edited by WolfForever on Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:08 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Original game challenges (Now loosened somewhat with four to choose from!)

    Post by Dark_wizzie on Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:05 pm

    @WolfForever wrote:When I said "not possible" I should really say "not possible without doing something that would qualify as ludicrous". Isolating myself in the starting secret (the one and only place I could, if that's the only secret I allow myself to use) and corner-stabbing 2/3 of the enemies to death would qualify as ludicrous IMO.

    And well, I took a look and I already know I'm going to need at least the start secret, I don't think I can do the second room without it. Four doors for enemies to flood in from + six Officers + four SS + eight brown guards + I start the fight with just a pistol and not much ammo + nowhere to hide = I'm dead.
    As long as I've got the starting room, I've basically beaten the entire map. Knife-stabbing at the doorway is easy to pull off and works on all guards except mutants. No health kits are actually required, just reload a save where you didn't get shot at. With enough tries, it's quite amazing the situations possble for BJ to escape from with perfect play.



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    Re: Original game challenges (Now loosened somewhat with four to choose from!)

    Post by WolfForever on Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:09 pm

    @Dark_wizzie wrote:
    @WolfForever wrote:When I said "not possible" I should really say "not possible without doing something that would qualify as ludicrous". Isolating myself in the starting secret (the one and only place I could, if that's the only secret I allow myself to use) and corner-stabbing 2/3 of the enemies to death would qualify as ludicrous IMO.

    And well, I took a look and I already know I'm going to need at least the start secret, I don't think I can do the second room without it. Four doors for enemies to flood in from + six Officers + four SS + eight brown guards + I start the fight with just a pistol and not much ammo + nowhere to hide = I'm dead.
    As long as I've got the starting room, I've basically beaten the entire map. Knife-stabbing at the doorway is easy to pull off and works on all guards except mutants. No health kits are actually required, just reload a save where you didn't get shot at. With enough tries, it's quite amazing the situations possble for BJ to escape from with perfect play.

    That doesn't work when you have four doors the guards can all flood in on you from at once in your best possible hiding spot.

    Also:
    1. Requiring corner-stabbing for all the guards is something I'd qualify as ludicrous, and if the only way to beat a level without a secret is to do something that is ludicrous, that secret is mandatory.
    2. The rules specifically in this case say no saving the game.

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    Re: Original game challenges (Now loosened somewhat with four to choose from!)

    Post by WolfForever on Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:32 pm

    Analyzing E6L9, allowing only the first secret which is legitimately mandatory if starting with just a pistol on hard:

    There are 188 bullets in that first secret. And there are 87 enemies (one is the boss, so 86 normal enemies). Each normal enemy (none are a dog) drops four bullets. That's 86x4=344 bullets from normal enemies. And I start with 8 bullets. So the total ammo I would get in that level if I restricted myself to just that secret would be 8+188+344=540 bullets. I need about 90 to get the boss.

    That means I have 450 bullets for the enemies. Divided by 86 is a little over 5 per enemy.

    That will be tough, but I know every enemy in the game that isn't a boss can be killed with five shots. And not every enemy is an SS (which takes the most). To be exact, there are 27 SS. So there are 60 enemies that aren't SS, but again one is Fatface. So really there are 59.

    It is realistic to kill a brown guard or Officer with 3 shots. So 3x59=177 shots. And for SS, 5x27=135 shots. Add that up, and I need 312 shots for normal enemies. Add Fatface, and I need around 400 shots to beat the level leaving no one alive and never using a knife. Which means that I have 540-400=140 bullets to spare.

    I can probably safely (and in a sane manner) save about 10-20 shots without much cost to my health using a knife, so that's now 150-160 bullets to spare.

    I'm for it.

    Now I just hope it's not a lot harder than it sounds (it probably will be).

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    Re: Original game challenges (Now loosened somewhat with four to choose from!)

    Post by WolferCooker on Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:38 pm

    Yep. The secret corridor is the only way. Just hope the EXE doesn't crash on you with so many dead bodies in such a small area.

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    Re: Original game challenges (Now loosened somewhat with four to choose from!)

    Post by WolfForever on Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:42 pm

    I ask for a prediction.

    The calculations are there, so: do you predict I will need to bust into one of the other three secrets with supplies?

    That said, I can be pretty sure ID Software intended that to be a mandatory secret (just like all the supplies on E1L9 and E2L9). If you start from scratch on anything other than baby though, it's pretty obvious there'd better be a secret in that first room though, because otherwise it would be (essentially) impossible.

    (Oh, and I also have to hope I don't take too many tries. If I lose too many lives I must do ALL of Episode 6 again!)


    Last edited by WolfForever on Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:47 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Original game challenges (Now loosened somewhat with four to choose from!)

    Post by WolferCooker on Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:47 pm

    I say yes. There's too many SS guards. And a few mutants can ambush you as well.

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    Re: Original game challenges (Now loosened somewhat with four to choose from!)

    Post by WolfForever on Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:48 pm

    Well there are no mutants on E6L9. That's E6L10. No other levels besides Episode 2 has a mutant.

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    Re: Original game challenges (Now loosened somewhat with four to choose from!)

    Post by WolferCooker on Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:51 pm

    Huh. I thought there were a couple in the hallway leading to Fatface's arena.

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    Re: Original game challenges (Now loosened somewhat with four to choose from!)

    Post by Dark_wizzie on Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:40 pm

    @WolfForever wrote:
    @Dark_wizzie wrote:
    @WolfForever wrote:When I said "not possible" I should really say "not possible without doing something that would qualify as ludicrous". Isolating myself in the starting secret (the one and only place I could, if that's the only secret I allow myself to use) and corner-stabbing 2/3 of the enemies to death would qualify as ludicrous IMO.

    And well, I took a look and I already know I'm going to need at least the start secret, I don't think I can do the second room without it. Four doors for enemies to flood in from + six Officers + four SS + eight brown guards + I start the fight with just a pistol and not much ammo + nowhere to hide = I'm dead.
    As long as I've got the starting room, I've basically beaten the entire map. Knife-stabbing at the doorway is easy to pull off and works on all guards except mutants. No health kits are actually required, just reload a save where you didn't get shot at. With enough tries, it's quite amazing the situations possble for BJ to escape from with perfect play.

    That doesn't work when you have four doors the guards can all flood in on you from at once in your best possible hiding spot.

    Also:
    1. Requiring corner-stabbing for all the guards is something I'd qualify as ludicrous, and if the only way to beat a level without a secret is to do something that is ludicrous, that secret is mandatory.
    2. The rules specifically in this case say no saving the game.
    Well, if you are going to impose rules like no saving, then it gets much messier if you don't allow secrets either. Depending on how many guards thugh, 4 doors can be fine... with saving. Wink Good luck.



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    Re: Original game challenges (Now loosened somewhat with four to choose from!)

    Post by linuxwolf on Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:50 pm

    This would be great to watch on YouTube. Anyone care to post a video of this?

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    Re: Original game challenges (Now loosened somewhat with four to choose from!)

    Post by WolferCooker on Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:58 pm

    If Forever is trying it himself, then perhaps he should linux.

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    Re: Original game challenges (Now loosened somewhat with four to choose from!)

    Post by WolfForever on Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:13 pm

    @WolferCooker wrote:Huh. I thought there were a couple in the hallway leading to Fatface's arena.

    No there are two SS.

    Now that I brought up E6L10 though, that's worth talking about too. First of all, this playthrough is absolutely NOT an "explore and conquer" type one. So if it's easy to leave an enemy or area behind, I generally will. For example, in E4L10 I ran to the exit, got my one-up and 15000 bonus points, and never fired a single shot. Not sure anyone said they thought it was but just wanted to make that clear.

    That said, since I do impose the rule that the playthrough must include secret levels, and they must be started from scratch like any other level, I have a tentative formula for E6L10, that uses no secrets and will not put me against any mutants except the two right at the exit area. Here's my plan:

    1. Kill the enemies in the alcoves in the entrance to the tan brick quadrant (opposite the quadrant you start the level facing). This usually profits me a bullet or two but also gives me the machinegun, because there is an SS in there.

    2. Use the brown weave (northern) quadrant to get everything I need. Why? For one, that quadrant contains no mutants. Two, fire a shot in and I will alert everyone. Stand in the best corner I have to kill them. Dash to get their ammo when necessary.

    3. Once that is done, there is plenty of ammo and some health in plain sight within the maze to defeat Hans Grosse with. Plus Hans is completely behind a door in every case, so running in the main maze won't alert him.

    4. With Hans Grosse dead, I have the key. And I'd think I ought to have at least a couple bullets left to deal with those last two mutants. Job done!

    5. Here is my reasoning to not use another quadrant:
    -The green slime (eastern) quadrant has no Hans and no key to begin with. There's also no good ammo that isn't either in a secret or requires being down a ton of mutants to get. So it's waste of time.
    -The tan brick (western) quadrant has a TON of mutants guarding Hans, and much less ammo compared to the brown weave one.
    -The brown/tan panel (southern) quadrant has a bigger maze relatively to the brown weave one and contains mutants.

    One convenience I do get on a boss and secret level is that, while I go for some good speed, there isn't a par time, so as long as I didn't spend an unreasonable amount of time to get the job done then I'm satisfied no doubt.

    And regarding mandatory secrets, if there is any grey area regarding what secrets other than the obviously mandatory ones in E2L2, E3L8, E4L5, E6L7, and the ones needed to access the secret levels, the goal is basically for as few secrets as possible, possible simply meaning that I can beat the level fast enough (when there is a par) and without doing anything that is completely not something I'd ever normally do.

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    Re: Original game challenges (Now loosened somewhat with four to choose from!)

    Post by Dark_wizzie on Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:15 pm

    I tried E6L9. The pushwall makes the level much, much easier not because of the ammo and health. It's because the player gets a spot to pick off guards, whereas I would not be forced to go against multiple SS/officers. This is still the starting room, the player doesn't have enough room to move around and pick off guards yet. I'm trying to negate that by going through the left most door, then running to the right most door, etc. It's going to take a lot of acrobatics to get this one done, if at all.



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    Re: Original game challenges (Now loosened somewhat with four to choose from!)

    Post by WolfForever on Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:16 pm

    @WolferCooker wrote:If Forever is trying it himself, then perhaps he should linux.

    I'd love to video a successful completion of an episode or even level, but I have nothing to record or upload with. Sad So I'd need some help.

    Note that I won't be going to Episode 6 until I've finished all other five episodes. It's not like I'm going to skip the other episodes and jump right to it. That mean I still got E2, E3, and E5 to go.

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    Re: Original game challenges (Now loosened somewhat with four to choose from!)

    Post by Dark_wizzie on Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:18 pm

    @WolfForever wrote:
    @WolferCooker wrote:If Forever is trying it himself, then perhaps he should linux.

    I'd love to video a successful completion of an episode or even level, but I have nothing to record or upload with. Sad So I'd need some help.

    Note that I won't be going to Episode 6 until I've finished all other five episodes. It's not like I'm going to skip the other episodes and jump right to it. That mean I still got E2, E3, and E5 to go.
    Use Hypercam 2, it's free.

    If only there was a SS at the start of E6L9... makes the level much easier.



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    Re: Original game challenges (Now loosened somewhat with four to choose from!)

    Post by WolfForever on Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:18 pm

    @Dark_wizzie wrote:I tried E6L9. The pushwall makes the level much, much easier not because of the ammo and health. It's because the player gets a spot to pick off guards, whereas I would not be forced to go against multiple SS/officers. This is still the starting room, the player doesn't have enough room to move around and pick off guards yet. I'm trying to negate that by going through the left most door, then running to the right most door, etc. It's going to take a lot of acrobatics to get this one done, if at all.

    That's exactly why I conclude that at least this secret is a mandatory one when starting from scratch, at least on a higher difficulty, but probably on anything but 'Can I Play, Daddy?'.

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    Re: Original game challenges (Now loosened somewhat with four to choose from!)

    Post by WolfForever on Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:18 pm

    @Dark_wizzie wrote:
    @WolfForever wrote:
    @WolferCooker wrote:If Forever is trying it himself, then perhaps he should linux.

    I'd love to video a successful completion of an episode or even level, but I have nothing to record or upload with. Sad So I'd need some help.

    Note that I won't be going to Episode 6 until I've finished all other five episodes. It's not like I'm going to skip the other episodes and jump right to it. That mean I still got E2, E3, and E5 to go.
    Use Hypercam 2, it's free.

    If only there was a SS at the start of E6L9... makes the level much easier.

    Recording is only part of the job, and I have to know where it saved. I still need a way to upload it!

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    Re: Original game challenges (Now loosened somewhat with four to choose from!)

    Post by WolferCooker on Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:19 pm

    Oh yeah definitely a must

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    Re: Original game challenges (Now loosened somewhat with four to choose from!)

    Post by Dark_wizzie on Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:20 pm

    Wolfforever, if you use Youtube......

    Hot damn, E6L9 is a huge challenge... I tried running to the next room to avoid the guards, but there are too many in the next room for this to work...
    But I'm going to give it my best shot at it!



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    Re: Original game challenges (Now loosened somewhat with four to choose from!)

    Post by Dark_wizzie on Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:24 pm

    OMFG YES
    I just did it!!!!

    I got the starting room cleared. Opened left most door, killed an officer, lured the guards to the left side of the room, then quickly went to the right most door (killing a guard or two on the way), fired a few times at SS in other room, did a 180 back into starting room, managed to kill a SS and 2 officers, got he machine gun. After that, it was done.

    SCORE!
    However, if you're going to try to get that done with 9 lives (max you can have), it's going to be very difficult.
    13 ammo left in my machine gun after I've gunned down the room and picked up the ammo.


    Last edited by Dark_wizzie on Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:28 pm; edited 1 time in total



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    Re: Original game challenges (Now loosened somewhat with four to choose from!)

    Post by WolferCooker on Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:28 pm

    staying away from loading/saving i see

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    Re: Original game challenges (Now loosened somewhat with four to choose from!)

    Post by Dark_wizzie on Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:30 pm

    I think if Wolfforever plays the level over and over and over, he has a chance of completing his goal, but not without a lot of hard work and time.



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    Re: Original game challenges (Now loosened somewhat with four to choose from!)

    Post by WolferCooker on Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:32 pm

    Might take days. That's what happened to me when I beat The Lost Relic the very first time.

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    Re: Original game challenges (Now loosened somewhat with four to choose from!)

    Post by Dark_wizzie on Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:36 pm

    The Lost Relic wasn't actually that difficult if you save often. Every time you get hit by a monster, reload a save. Exploit boss AI, etc. But last level is impossible to finish without cheating or knifing many bosses because there isn't enough ammo for I am Death Incarnate level.

    But when we have unique situations like this in E6L9, we have something different, which is what I was going for in my WNE description. ALthough, The Lost Relic was quite a good step because of the different monster attacks. There were one or two select levels that were very difficult, but others are just straightforward.



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    Re: Original game challenges (Now loosened somewhat with four to choose from!)

    Post by WolferCooker on Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:39 pm

    Wait a sec, did you reach the The Lost Relic final level in the hardest mode?

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    Re: Original game challenges (Now loosened somewhat with four to choose from!)

    Post by Dark_wizzie on Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:43 pm




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    Re: Original game challenges (Now loosened somewhat with four to choose from!)

    Post by WolferCooker on Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:45 pm

    My word. I don't have the balls to do something like that.

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    Re: Original game challenges (Now loosened somewhat with four to choose from!)

    Post by WolfForever on Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:46 pm

    I did a sample video with E1L1 into a small part of E1L10. It has no sound but I think it just might work. I'll post a link as soon as I have one.

    @WolferCooker Me neither. I can't believe if Dark_wizze did E6L9 without that first secret. Was it on Death Incarnate?

    EDIT: Video will be at http://youtu.be/WEyzlv0S1pA

    My name on YouTube is kakhome1 BTW.


    Last edited by WolfForever on Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:49 pm; edited 3 times in total

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