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    Mods with almost no original game content - but retaining the original feel

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    WolfForever
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    Mods with almost no original game content - but retaining the original feel

    Post by WolfForever on Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:07 pm

    What are some Wolfenstein/Spear mods that basically change everything (sprites, graphics, enemies, weapons, etc.), yet still feel quite like a game in the Wolfenstein series over having an atmosphere of their own?

    Some I can think of fairly quickly that could satisfy this to some are all the Spear Resurrection/EoD stuff, G&G 0.5, Totenkopf SDL, and SOD Reloaded, but there's probably others. I'd be interested in favorites (which one does things best and is of highest quality, etc.?) as well. For me I'd have to say all the SR stuff of SOD Reloaded might be my favorites, but all four I listed are pretty strong IMO and I even feel bad for not putting Totenkopf SDL in my favorites list; however I didn't want to qualify more than a few as favorites.

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    Re: Mods with almost no original game content - but retaining the original feel

    Post by Thomas on Mon Sep 24, 2012 2:16 am

    Though it's old and still contains a handful of graphics from the original Wolf, I think Totengraeber first took it all to a new level. Basically, almost all wall patches have been enhanced, so to speak, as well as sprites and sounds. I think it's an entirely original atmosphere, very persuasive as a complete stand-alone piece of work.

    I'd love to do a map set for Totengraeber one day. It really is a massive effort to which I'd love to show my gratitude and admiration.

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    Re: Mods with almost no original game content - but retaining the original feel

    Post by WolfForever on Mon Sep 24, 2012 6:14 am

    Well there is no doubt that Totengraeber is a magnificent, timeless classic - among the first classic TC's that evolved near the same time as Barry's Armageddon/TRTN and Gary Ragland's Assassinate Hitler/Schabbs 2000. And those are all awesome too. But, all of them use a vast amount of resources that are unmodified or very little modified (a slight texture pallet shift doesn't count as being) from those in the original Wolf3D/SoD. There's no problem with that whatsoever, as all of your mods use vast quantities of original game resources, and I'd never, ever say that detracts from a mod's quality (be it yours or somebody else's), as that would be totally wrong.

    However, for this thread, it's just not what I'm intending things to be about. I'm looking for TC's in which the whole resource library owes very little to those of the original game, yet all the same it still has the feel and atmosphere of another Wolfenstein game. It has to be somewhere around Spear Resurrection that started it all; I think SR revolutionized the ideas of what you can do with a mod just like Totengraeber and the like set the very idea of stand-alone mods and source code changes to life. I can't think of anything before SR that was a 100% serious mod (not some kind of joke work put together with little actual production value) and had so many changes. And in the (almost) 11 years since, there have been a number of modders in the community to once again take coding to that level, some to create a completely different atmosphere entirely (Orb, Batman, Klooni, etc.) but others to still make classic Wolfers feel at home even when the picture(s) they actually see on the screen borrows very little from the original Wolfenstein/SoD games.

    That category, and the best that has stemmed from it, is the focus of this thread.

    Don't change plans or get me wrong here by any means Thomas - I'd love to see a mod from you for Totengraeber just as much as I'd like to see any other new mod from you, or even (theoretically) more high quality work for Spear Resurrection (and the like). It is just that this particular thread isn't aimed to focus on that.

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    Re: Mods with almost no original game content - but retaining the original feel

    Post by Thomas on Mon Sep 24, 2012 7:00 am

    I always dug ISJ's Batman mods. Never read the comic, rarely watched the cartoon, but loved these games.


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    Re: Mods with almost no original game content - but retaining the original feel

    Post by WolfForever on Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:36 am

    Those use all the new resources to create the feel of an entirely different setting. As stated, the focus here is on cases where the original resources are drastically altered, but not so much the Wolfenstein theme/atmosphere.

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    Re: Mods with almost no original game content - but retaining the original feel

    Post by Thomas on Mon Sep 24, 2012 12:16 pm

    In that case, there isn't much to discuss. Think you listed 'em all already.

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    Re: Mods with almost no original game content - but retaining the original feel

    Post by WolfForever on Mon Sep 24, 2012 12:50 pm

    Well in that case which of the ones I mentioned are your favorites/least favorites? Or more specifically, you could put each mod in the first list below (same mentioned in the first post) to a category a), b), or c) in the second:

    Mods:
    Spear Resurrection
    Spear Resurrection 10-year SDL
    End of Destiny
    Totenkopf SDL
    SOD Reloaded
    G & G 0.5

    Categories:
    a) Retains the original feel/atmosphere overall and I enjoyed it
    b) Retains the original feel/atmosphere overall but I didn't think it was all that good
    c) I think the mod had a different feel/atmosphere (regardless of like or dislike towards the mod)

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    Re: Mods with almost no original game content - but retaining the original feel

    Post by Dark_wizzie on Mon Sep 24, 2012 1:50 pm

    Personally I feel that anything that deviates from the original Wolf3d/Sod graphics and sprites kills the original atmosphere. It just feels different to me.



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    Re: Mods with almost no original game content - but retaining the original feel

    Post by ronwolf1705 on Mon Sep 24, 2012 4:59 pm

    I don't think it should be a mods or TC's purpose to emulate the atmosphere of the original Wolf3d. Because that's what you have the original Wolf3d for (and countless mapsets). But a lot of mods can have their own atmosphere while also having the ability to suck you into an adventure like the original one.




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    Re: Mods with almost no original game content - but retaining the original feel

    Post by WolferCooker on Mon Sep 24, 2012 6:39 pm

    No one mentioned Coming of the Storm? C'mon guys that one retains the Wolf3d feel the most. WSJ made this unique DOS Wolf3d mod that had iD software potential had they spent the time and interest to create a mess load of Wolf3d mods back in the '90s.

    Personally, I think changing all the original Wolf3d wall textures, guard uniform colors, and sounds to the ones Coming of the Storm used would make Wolf3d more realistic. Of course anyone here could do that now.

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    Re: Mods with almost no original game content - but retaining the original feel

    Post by WolfForever on Mon Sep 24, 2012 7:14 pm

    @WolferCooker wrote:No one mentioned Coming of the Storm? C'mon guys that one retains the Wolf3d feel the most. WSJ made this unique DOS Wolf3d mod that had iD software potential had they spent the time and interest to create a mess load of Wolf3d mods back in the '90s.

    Personally, I think changing all the original Wolf3d wall textures, guard uniform colors, and sounds to the ones Coming of the Storm used would make Wolf3d more realistic. Of course anyone here could do that now.

    Not available in SDL long after many other classics have already been converted = Instant disqualify.

    Especially considering that Totenkopf is, yet WSJ didn't bother to even make a simple conversion with his other mods.

    There are still so many mods out there just drooling blood for SDL treatment. ATAW3D, W.O.L.F., Armageddon, TRTN, Assassinate Hitler, Schabbs 2000, Countdown to Disaster, Desperate Measures (WHICH IS STILL IN PROGRESS WITH THE AUTHOR USING DOS!! AAARRRGHHHH THAT IS SO INEXCUSABLE!!!!!!), Halls of Stonehenge, Orb of Dilaaria, Chemical Warfare, Castle Assault, every WSJ mod besides Totenkopf, End of Destiny, The Final Solution, Wolfenstein Reoloaded (you'd think if they did Klooni they could go do that as well?, but not), The Golden Episodes, Rising Evil/Double Trouble, Trench Warfare, Nazi Operation, The False Spear, Guns and Glory (the 2007 one), Trilogy+Nocturnal Missions, Escape from Castle Holle, Umbrella Beginnings...maybe a few more...and I've already limited this list to ones that I think are at least very good if not excellent, or have strong signs they are but can't get their full value due to the non-availability of SDL versions. And Andy is just working on Bucksnort's mods all year - those are merely just "good" - go get BMSE in SDL and then move on to the more important stuff already! Learn how to prioritize by quality, for Christ sake. Isn't it just so intuitive that BETTER mods should get their treatment FIRST?


    Last edited by WolfForever on Mon Sep 24, 2012 7:35 pm; edited 4 times in total

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    Re: Mods with almost no original game content - but retaining the original feel

    Post by Dark_wizzie on Mon Sep 24, 2012 7:24 pm

    @WolfForever wrote:
    @WolferCooker wrote:No one mentioned Coming of the Storm? C'mon guys that one retains the Wolf3d feel the most. WSJ made this unique DOS Wolf3d mod that had iD software potential had they spent the time and interest to create a mess load of Wolf3d mods back in the '90s.

    Personally, I think changing all the original Wolf3d wall textures, guard uniform colors, and sounds to the ones Coming of the Storm used would make Wolf3d more realistic. Of course anyone here could do that now.

    Not available in SDL long after many other classics have already been converted = Instant disqualify.

    Especially considering that Totenkopf is, yet WSJ didn't bother to even make a simple conversion with his other mods.
    How simple is the conversion? I thought it had to be re-made.



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    Re: Mods with almost no original game content - but retaining the original feel

    Post by Thomas on Tue Sep 25, 2012 1:13 am

    @WolfForever wrote:There are still so many mods out there just drooling blood for SDL treatment. ATAW3D, W.O.L.F., Armageddon, TRTN, Assassinate Hitler, Schabbs 2000, Countdown to Disaster, Desperate Measures (WHICH IS STILL IN PROGRESS WITH THE AUTHOR USING DOS!! AAARRRGHHHH THAT IS SO INEXCUSABLE!!!!!!), Halls of Stonehenge, Orb of Dilaaria, Chemical Warfare, Castle Assault, every WSJ mod besides Totenkopf, End of Destiny, The Final Solution, Wolfenstein Reoloaded (you'd think if they did Klooni they could go do that as well?, but not), The Golden Episodes, Rising Evil/Double Trouble, Trench Warfare, Nazi Operation, The False Spear, Guns and Glory (the 2007 one), Trilogy+Nocturnal Missions, Escape from Castle Holle, Umbrella Beginnings...maybe a few more...and I've already limited this list to ones that I think are at least very good if not excellent, or have strong signs they are but can't get their full value due to the non-availability of SDL versions. And Andy is just working on Bucksnort's mods all year - those are merely just "good" - go get BMSE in SDL and then move on to the more important stuff already! Learn how to prioritize by quality, for Christ sake. Isn't it just so intuitive that BETTER mods should get their treatment FIRST?

    We also need Ian Skevos-Jones' efforts (Batman, Quest for the Amulet), Santeri Kiiski's "Operation Hidden Secret", Kuki's "Secrets of the Grauburg Dungeons" as well as "Project Weltuntergang"... CHOKAGE... OPERATION TODPFAD... Zero Hour, Operation Panzerschiff, Projekt Vertilgung (though it really needs to be finished IMO, maybe reach out to Zach Higgins and ask whether or not it should be signed off as a community project)... Pretty much anything edited besides Hotel Romanstein and Super Stevenstein. They suck so bad.

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    Re: Mods with almost no original game content - but retaining the original feel

    Post by ronwolf1705 on Tue Sep 25, 2012 5:38 am

    End of Destiny SDL Beta: http://diehardwolfers.areyep.com/viewtopic.php?t=6267

    But yes, a lot of mods could use the SDL treatment. Something like Andy's conversions, that is just a great effort.

    Learn how to prioritize by quality

    That's too subjective, others might get different things out of mods you don't consider that great.

    Kuki's "Secrets of the Grauburg Dungeons" as well as "Project Weltuntergang"

    To this day, Project Weltuntergang is still one of the best mod experiences I ever had.




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    Re: Mods with almost no original game content - but retaining the original feel

    Post by Thomas on Tue Sep 25, 2012 6:16 am

    @ronwolf1705 wrote:To this day, Project Weltuntergang is still one of the best mod experiences I ever had.
    Oooh yes, like when you start Episode 3 and you can hear the tanks rolling around behind the trees, guards flying all over the place in the compound itself. And Episode 6 is just a beacon, difficult as hell but a huge amount of fun. I also liked the slightly Commie-themed Episode 5. All in all, the sprites and wall patches in the game were all very dark and murky, a great sign that it's a TC rather than a mod we're playing here.

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    Re: Mods with almost no original game content - but retaining the original feel

    Post by WolfForever on Tue Sep 25, 2012 8:39 am

    Kuki asked to hav his stuff withdrawn from the Dome. Thus they cannot be posted.

    I understand quality is subjective, but I don't think there is much doubt that there is a consensus that many, MANY mods are more special in terms of actual features/high quality than any of Bucksnort's.

    For EOD, a beta is by definition buggy and does not count until it is finished!

    I will admit that Todpfad, Chokage (though it is very dated), and Panzerschiff were misses on my part. The others didn't hit me as significantly, however.

    What is even more inexcusable though in 2012 is something still being made for Dos (Mr. Desperate Measures, I see you)! Yes, I'd support saying that if you are going to release anything new that is more than just raw maps (gamemaps, maphead files) then releasing it with SDL compatibility is mandatory (that isn't saying you cannot provide a Dos exe IN ADDITION, however, since that's harmless).

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    Re: Mods with almost no original game content - but retaining the original feel

    Post by Thomas on Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:12 am

    @WolfForever wrote:Kuki asked to hav his stuff withdrawn from the Dome. Thus they cannot be posted.
    When did that happen?! And I don't know if you refer to me mentioning his name and his mods cannot be posted, or the games themselves (somebody else may port them to SDL if it ever should be an issue). I think this community is becoming more and more strict. Like the time I mentioned SonderKommando revolt. What the hell is happening?!?!

    @WolfForever wrote:What is even more inexcusable though in 2012 is something still being made for Dos (Mr. Desperate Measures, I see you)! Yes, I'd support saying that if you are going to release anything new that is more than just raw maps (gamemaps, maphead files) then releasing it with SDL compatibility is mandatory (that isn't saying you cannot provide a Dos exe IN ADDITION, however, since that's harmless).

    Yeah, Mr. Desperate Measures... Total n00b, that one.

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    Re: Mods with almost no original game content - but retaining the original feel

    Post by Dark_wizzie on Tue Sep 25, 2012 2:31 pm

    @Thomas wrote:
    @WolfForever wrote:Kuki asked to hav his stuff withdrawn from the Dome. Thus they cannot be posted.
    When did that happen?! And I don't know if you refer to me mentioning his name and his mods cannot be posted, or the games themselves (somebody else may port them to SDL if it ever should be an issue). I think this community is becoming more and more strict. Like the time I mentioned SonderKommando revolt. What the hell is happening?!?!


    This is old news. The guy apparently had an epiphany and decided that video games encourage violence. Frustrated
    I don't see how this is strict.



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    Re: Mods with almost no original game content - but retaining the original feel

    Post by Andy on Tue Sep 25, 2012 3:16 pm

    @Dark_wizzie wrote:
    @Thomas wrote:
    @WolfForever wrote:Kuki asked to hav his stuff withdrawn from the Dome. Thus they cannot be posted.
    When did that happen?! And I don't know if you refer to me mentioning his name and his mods cannot be posted, or the games themselves (somebody else may port them to SDL if it ever should be an issue). I think this community is becoming more and more strict. Like the time I mentioned SonderKommando revolt. What the hell is happening?!?!


    This is old news. The guy apparently had an epiphany and decided that video games encourage violence. Frustrated
    I don't see how this is strict.
    It may be old news, but it isn't widely known. Maybe it was discussed in a chat or e-mail, but I don't recall a Dome News item on this! Smile

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    Re: Mods with almost no original game content - but retaining the original feel

    Post by Dark_wizzie on Tue Sep 25, 2012 3:20 pm

    @Andy wrote:
    @Dark_wizzie wrote:
    @Thomas wrote:
    @WolfForever wrote:Kuki asked to hav his stuff withdrawn from the Dome. Thus they cannot be posted.
    When did that happen?! And I don't know if you refer to me mentioning his name and his mods cannot be posted, or the games themselves (somebody else may port them to SDL if it ever should be an issue). I think this community is becoming more and more strict. Like the time I mentioned SonderKommando revolt. What the hell is happening?!?!


    This is old news. The guy apparently had an epiphany and decided that video games encourage violence. Frustrated
    I don't see how this is strict.
    It may be old news, but it isn't widely known. Maybe it was discussed in a chat or e-mail, but I don't recall a Dome News item on this! Smile

    True, true. Brian wouldn't exactly post that as "Wolf3d News". It was discussed in the chatbox a year or so ago.



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    Post by Nexion on Tue Sep 25, 2012 3:55 pm

    @WolfForever wrote:...WITH THE AUTHOR USING DOS!! AAARRRGHHHH THAT IS SO INEXCUSABLE!!!!!!... What is even more inexcusable though in 2012 is something still being made for Dos... Isn't it just so intuitive that BETTER mods should get their treatment FIRST?
    Why is there such fuss about "highly esteemed mod authors" (ex: Big Time Gangsta; when no one cared about it until a name was revealed) and SDL>DOS?
    Could it be that you base your own opinion a lot around other peoples' opinion of mods?
    For my taste i can't dig most of the mods mentioned here, wouldn't poke half of them with a stick and would catapult the EOD hype into nirvana.
    If so strict about mods, details and stuff; like keeping it very close to the original then why the thirst for SDL (except heavy coded monsters that might eat your pc's cpu)? It's not the original and not exactly the same. Except that if people keep coming here for a 20 year old dos game i would guess they might use dosbox and might also play other old games which probably don't have any source ports and require dos/dosbox.

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    Re: Mods with almost no original game content - but retaining the original feel

    Post by Andy on Wed Sep 26, 2012 9:05 am

    I'm surprised that so few fans of a 20 year old DOS game (and its mods) keep an old DOS-capable computer to play their games/mods. They all clamor for and plead that their favorite mods be converted to Wolf4SDL because the DOS versions won't play right in WinXP or under DOSBox.

    A 1-Gig Pentium III computer with Win98SE will run all Wolf3d mods without any lag (There are a couple of new ones whose authors insist on compiling with Visual C++ Express which won't run in any Win9x environment, but that's a topic for another thread).

    When I mentioned a while ago that I use Win98 for running my Wolf3d mods, some people thought it was bizarre. Kind of the same attitude as others have towards fans of a 20-year old DOS game like Wolf3d {"Why do you use such an ancient engine for modding? lolz")

    In any case, I do enjoy converting mods to Wolf4SDL and am happy to make more of the "classics" playable for the modern Wolfer! Razz

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    Re: Mods with almost no original game content - but retaining the original feel

    Post by WolferCooker on Wed Sep 26, 2012 1:14 pm

    Andy, you should try to get in touch with WSJ. If he doesn't have the time to remake anymore of his mods, perhaps you can seek permission to convert his original mods?

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    Re: Mods with almost no original game content - but retaining the original feel

    Post by Dark_wizzie on Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:19 pm

    @Andy wrote:I'm surprised that so few fans of a 20 year old DOS game (and its mods) keep an old DOS-capable computer to play their games/mods. They all clamor for and plead that their favorite mods be converted to Wolf4SDL because the DOS versions won't play right in WinXP or under DOSBox.

    A 1-Gig Pentium III computer with Win98SE will run all Wolf3d mods without any lag (There are a couple of new ones whose authors insist on compiling with Visual C++ Express which won't run in any Win9x environment, but that's a topic for another thread).

    When I mentioned a while ago that I use Win98 for running my Wolf3d mods, some people thought it was bizarre. Kind of the same attitude as others have towards fans of a 20-year old DOS game like Wolf3d {"Why do you use such an ancient engine for modding? lolz")

    In any case, I do enjoy converting mods to Wolf4SDL and am happy to make more of the "classics" playable for the modern Wolfer! Razz

    A 1 gig of what?
    I'm not going to keep an old, dusty computer in my house so I can play Wolf3d only. To me, SDL is original wolf, enhanced. (And playable, for me. Even my XP computer stopped being able to play it, and then I threw it out ages ago.)



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    Re: Mods with almost no original game content - but retaining the original feel

    Post by Andy on Wed Sep 26, 2012 4:12 pm

    Oops I meant 1 GHz machine

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    Re: Mods with almost no original game content - but retaining the original feel

    Post by WolfForever on Wed Sep 26, 2012 8:33 pm

    Here's an idea: Let's make a thread where we can request/vote for the next classic mod we want Andy (time permitting and voluntarily) to convert! Then the whole community will get an input. Smile

    I'd also say it would be good to have separate votes for mods that should be easy to convert and ones that would most likely take a lot more time (i.e. very large amounts of code changes, etc.). If I was to make a first vote for one in each category, I think the "hard to convert" one would have to be Orb of Dilaaria. Somewhat easier to convert, maybe The Golden Episodes, that is way up there at least for sure. But I have to admit I'm not zero biased; I've played many of the classics (all WSJ stuff included, except that little WoV Demo thing) when I had a more solidly working DosBOX, and I'm not going to waste my vote personally requesting one I've already played, but OTOH I would not expect anyone else to use their input for such a request either.

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    Re: Mods with almost no original game content - but retaining the original feel

    Post by Thomas on Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:08 am

    I love SDL and there's no chance in hell that I'd want to dig up a Win98 or anything like that to play Wolf naturally. But Andy's talking some sense there. It's a 20-year old game. We all need to remember that.

    Oh, and for a 'convertible' (is that it? lol) mod, my humble guess is 'Project Weltuntergang'. This talk lately... Man, I miss that mod with all of my heart. Some good memories there!

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    Re: Mods with almost no original game content - but retaining the original feel

    Post by ronwolf1705 on Thu Sep 27, 2012 6:33 am

    This talk lately... Man, I miss that mod with all of my heart. Some good memories there!

    Yeah, totally agree man! It's still on the Dome btw.




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    Re: Mods with almost no original game content - but retaining the original feel

    Post by Thomas on Thu Sep 27, 2012 6:40 am

    Sure thing, but... I don't know. I really, really think this needs SDL treatment most of all. And don't even get me started on 'Secrets of the Grauburg Dungeons'! Short but good, that one - and very, very sullen/gray, so the game title and the contents actually see eye to eye.

    giftmacher
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    Re: Mods with almost no original game content - but retaining the original feel

    Post by giftmacher on Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:18 am

    Grauburg is a shareware mapset with no code changes whatsoever. So it should play flawlessly in SDL without any hassle.

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    Re: Mods with almost no original game content - but retaining the original feel

    Post by Thomas on Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:24 am

    Never thought about that. You sure the ceiling colors aren't changed? I can't recall purple ceiling in it. But it's been ages and ages...

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    Re: Mods with almost no original game content - but retaining the original feel

    Post by giftmacher on Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:29 am

    Have a look see clown

    http://www.site90.freehostingcloud.com/index.htm

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    Re: Mods with almost no original game content - but retaining the original feel

    Post by Thomas on Thu Sep 27, 2012 9:35 am

    Me gots to play that one! Link you very much for the thank.

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    Re: Mods with almost no original game content - but retaining the original feel

    Post by lilmanjs on Thu Sep 27, 2012 2:25 pm

    I'd for one would love to see The Golden Episodes in SDL. I'm sure somebody could do it and it wouldn't take much time. I was about a 3rd of the way through my SDL conversion of it when my Hard Drive crapped out on me, but it wasn't as hard as I thought it was going to be. I like to think that's what the lost episodes should have been like.





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    Re: Mods with almost no original game content - but retaining the original feel

    Post by WolfForever on Thu Sep 27, 2012 8:36 pm

    @lilmanjs wrote:I'd for one would love to see The Golden Episodes in SDL. I'm sure somebody could do it and it wouldn't take much time. I was about a 3rd of the way through my SDL conversion of it when my Hard Drive crapped out on me, but it wasn't as hard as I thought it was going to be. I like to think that's what the lost episodes should have been like.

    Same here. I'm creating a separate requests thread.

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