Enemy Pack Deluxe ver. 1.0.

Hello guys.

I realized not so long after that it was nearly two years ago I've posted examples of enemy designs through MediaFire. Now, after many months with sweat, tears, brainstorm and experience, here's the first version of the enemy archive.

It's called "Enemy Pack Deluxe" ver. 1.0. You can download through here:


This file is gargantuan, around 500 Mb in total.  So let me explain whats inside the file:

1. It contains around 200 enemies and bosses with full animations (idle/walking/attacks/pain/death/static/projectiles), divided in 38 enemy categories.
   
2. It contains enemies/sprites from Wolfenstein 3D mods, Doom mods, Heretic, Blake Stone and many game types from retro FPS. Enemies variants are from nazis, mutants, robots to occults and demons etc..
   
3. Each enemy file contains of individually sprites of animations and a sprite sheet of all sprites at once. Some of them has an extra file where it contains projectiles both individual and sprite sheet. And of course, every enemies has a document description, where it shows the info of the foes (Name, healing points, speed, weapons, items dropped, extra note, sources taken and credits).
   
4. Normal enemies are placed in 64x64 tiles, big enemies in 96x96 tiles and giant enemies in 128x128 tiles.
   
5. Many of the original and seen all-ready before enemies has got revamped changes, from textures on missing parts, extra frame rates and body movements.
   
6. Many of the enemies are new and never seen enemies, inspired from other games to my imaginary.
   

However, I'm not finished with this file. Next update will have some more enemies, new fixed issues and many stuff going ahead. It's scheduled on 24th February.

Feel free to watch and enjoy this release. Until then, I'll taking a break. Get psyched.

PS: I'm using Mega Limited rather than MediaFire. There's no PopUps and advertising there. The link is tested and should work.

A lot of stuff but most of them seem variations or recolors of existing ones. Maybe add a note that the download is only 27 MB or someone could confuse it with the 500 ><
Can you tell me which enemies are totally new and never seen before cause that's usually the most interesting part, for me at least. The sprite sheets are a nice extra. Maybe could be trimmed on each side a bit to save like 10% disk space or so =p
There are empty MACOSX folders and some apple files spread across the folders. I'm also not sure if the info (HP, drops, speed) should give a general idea for usage or is just some fun info.

Not sure where you get some of the credits from or made mistakes but there is room for fixes.

I have doubts that MCS Amsterdam was doing some of the graphics.

"Sentry Gun" is from "DeathTrigger", not "Operation: Serpent" and made by Nexion. While Executor just took it without asking he put some name in the massive! (respect) credits text file.

Some stuff seems to have minimalistic changes but gets credited to several people.
The "missile/heat seeker/rocket guard" are all credited to Doomjedi, Mario Luigi, Mega Luigi and WSJ. Something like the Rocket Guard gonna be messy after some time.

Another example is the well known "Arachnotron" which seems to be identical to Doom's except it's put in 128x128 frames, without palette and following info.

"Sources: Doom II, Klooni.
Credits: ID Software, Mega Luigi, Mario Maniac, KFH Games."

I don't see how 3/4 of those and Klooni had anything to do with it.
It's good to have names of all involved that changed 1 pixel here or there but then a person who just recolored or put that 1 pixel gets the same amount of credit as the person who made all the graphics/frames from scratch. It's like OMJ or JPB  (shut up OMJ) puts a moustache on Mona Lisa or recolors it to pink and gets to be know as 1 of 2 people that made the original Mona Lisa. It's great you added  a list of sources for anyone who wants to bother.

The point of such pack is usually to offer graphics to people for easy use (unlike mods so credits have a bit more impact here due to specific usage) and some people know from which games the graphics come but there are also a lot people who have no clue and would just credit the persons listed. Problem is it gets more and more diluted over time till you end with OMJ being the maker of Mona Lisa. Depending on the each person's perspective it's all irrelevant or not =]

Look at this way Atina. Brick is essentially covering his own ass like you have to with citations on a research paper. If you don't know whether to give credit or not, do it anyway.

Tormentor667, the head of "Blade of Agony" project I'm making art for, asked me to write that regarding the use of "Blade of Agony" medic in your pack:

it's unreleased material stolen without our approval

I'd add it's also a spoiler for part III features.

@Atina: I've read your comments, Atina, and I can say that I at the same time agree, disagree and perform some facepalms of your words.

Mostly I've seen you nitpicking for small things. And I know that irony is on your side, since that's not my strongest side at all.

@Atina wrote:
Maybe add a note that the download is only 27 MB or someone could confuse it with the 500 >< 

27 Mb unzipped and almost 500 Mb unzipped. No big deal. Checked.

@Atina wrote:
Maybe could be trimmed on each side a bit to save like 10% disk space or so =p

Nope, I'll think it look very nice at well. Look on my feature spoilers what I'm planning for my next updates.

@Atina wrote:
There are empty MACOSX folders and some apple files spread across the folders.

The file's been over two computers. My wife's laptop do have Windows while our main computer is Macintosh. So I worked with those sprites on Windows and executed files through Mac on Mega, since Explorer on laptop is lagging more than Mac's Safari.

@Atina wrote:
Can you tell me which enemies are totally new and never seen before cause that's usually the most interesting part, for me at least.

Among the new ones, it's many spread on each categories, so I can't say all of them exactly, but many robot troopers, techs, different kinds of ubermutants and ubersoldats, mechawalkers and those minor nazi and mutant units are new mostly.
The other enemies are taken from several Wolf 3d mods, Doom mods and many kinds of retro FPS games. However, almost all of them have new edited features I've fixed which I'll think you overseen a little. Did you noticed that almost all big Wolf3d enemies with one direction has got a standing/idle frame rate? Some of them has also got a pain frame rate, which I'll add on next updates to other I'm missing. Doctors and scientist are another examples that got textures on their pants rather than black silhouettes as whole. Hellkeeper and otrebors got polished and refreshed skins. Ultramutants gots another attack frame rate. Iron Knight was a hell to remake, I'll think overseen around ten times some details before it's finished.
I could have mentioned more and more, but you'll see the point. My goal is to refresh those all-seen foes with textures on black spaces, several frame rates, fixed issues and new features to give them an organic and authentic feel and look.
I'm not here to telling anyone that I'm a sprite Messiah, because I know that there are many who has more experience than me. I'm here to try my skills and come with some features which I know will suit very well on Wolf3d mods. I slowly, but surely learned to create enemies mostly by recoloring, copy and paste and scaling/rotation by GameMaker, RotSprite and by look on the mirror.
Enemies from Doom will have some changes on the future. It will have a Wolf 3d feel that it has attack frame rate on one direction, but I will also make standing frame rate on all eight directions that Doom don't have. Same goes to Heretic, Hexen, ShadowCaster enemies etc.

@Atina wrote:
Not sure where you get some of the credits from or made mistakes but there is room for fixes.

Of course there's room for fixes. I'm not finished with the pack. But why there's many people credited on each enemies and projectiles is not only who's making enemies, but also which games it's involved. So naturally I'll put them on credit as well. Better more than less. It's like a research paper.
I'll saw that you mentioned Nexion created Sentry Gun from "DeathTrigger", I didn't know of it, so my apologize, thanks for the mentioning. It's fixed now.

So here's a list of what to expect on next updates further:

Spoiler:

One final thing, which is the reason i've intervened, and which I didn't like this:
What the heck has to do with OMJ???

Seriously, I thought we're finished talked about him and put a closure about that episodes. This is NOT about him and I has NOTHING to do about him. I'll become both angry and sad only to say and think about him. There's no joke or funny comments about what he's doing. So I beg you. STOP!

@doomjedi: I've adjusted the enemy pack again and removed both medic and healer guard. I didn't know about this, so I apologize regretfully. My fault:'(

brickgolem wrote:27 Mb unzipped and almost 500 Mb unzipped. No big deal. Checked.

No big deal for you but maybe for others who might not even bother then. I currently have a sucky connection so i first avoided it. I only tried to give more people access to it.

I seen some new frames here and there and small edits but that wasn't my point. I also didn't say any of those small changes or recolors are bad. I only said the credits gonna dilute the artists who did the most work or are plain wrong. Does adding a moustache to one of the bosses make it mine? But in wolf3d community it's only bad if you rip maps and titles/concepts for pseudo sequels. I guess every artist should be just happy if it's just used in any way.

brickgolem wrote:changes on the future.

Sure not a problem but it is available for download now and already useable.

WolferCooker wrote:Brick is essentially covering his own ass like you have to with citations on a research paper. If you don't know whether to give credit or not, do it anyway.

brickgolem wrote:But why there's many people credited on each enemies and projectiles is not only who's making enemies, but also which games it's involved. So naturally I'll put them on credit as well. Better more than less. It's like a research paper.

Putting mod author names to each graphic set just cause they made a mod involving the set? What the hell they have to do with it while most mods have a zillion credits. Most of the time the authors have nothing to do with the graphics and no one who downloads this will realize that.
Listing some random names for safety. Sorry but this is plain stupid. That's not how citations/sources work or you end with something like Wikipedia. You either try or you leave it otherwise why bother "researching" at all. Heck the Sentry Gun shows there wasn't much research. This is just taking shortcuts like OMJ or trying to cover yourself.
You realize it's gonna be used as a resource for all kind of things by all kind of people (not only wolf3d community) and take the info for granted. And this only gonna create a chain of mess with each additional user.

So Mega Luigi, Mario Maniac, KFH Games are responsible for an original Doom enemy? Executor is listed despite neither him or you asking and ripping it directly from the game while it wasn't put for download on any site. Heck, he even listed it in his credits if you checked. And there are more Doom enemies and other sets that seem inaccurate. Did you rip the Medic enemy and others or were they anywhere for download?

brickgolem wrote:One final thing, which is the reason i've intervened, and which I didn't like this:
What the heck has to do with OMJ???

So that's the only reason you bothered to reply despite errors? I mentioned him cause he is a simple example that is easy to understand for all parties especially since you also dealt with him.  Seems like meh edits even after pointing out what could be checked. Just replace each name listed by  "Abraham Lincoln" so it's fine.

I've adjusted the enemy pack again and removed both medic and healer guard. I didn't know about this, so I apologize regretfully. My fault:'(

Thank you

Did you rip the Medic enemy and others or were they anywhere for download?

He most probably downloaded it from project's github (there is no other way to get it, unless it might got included as yet unused "Chapter III" art in previous BoA release - in github project you release current state of the project when Chapter II is ready, even if it includes resources of unfinished chapter 3).
That's why I hate github, but BoA team can't develop such complicated project without one (and I can relate to their reasons).
Github is an advanced program for project development - but unless you pay - free version forces you to keep the files at open access (to anyone), so anyone can propose code/art changes, download your project at any stage and play it....it's basically public hosting if you know the link.
That's why "Team RayCast" doesn't work with github.

We have released so far Chapter 1 and 2 of BoA and working hard on Chapter 3.
Medic (my work , as all new art) is one of the many surprises of part 3 - unreleased, unannounced, kept secret from general public who are not checking (I'd say "peeping at") project's github.
So it's not nice for people to take such unreleased art surprise of Chapter in development and put it in an artpack for general public who can use it then even before we release our related Chapter.

Brick is not just crediting people for the art work. He is crediting people for that and for who created their behavior. He credited me and my brother not for the art, but because he took some of those enemies from our games, and though we didn't make their sprites, we indirectly contributed to his work, even if just as a source to provide said sprites to him. So yeah... I understand what you mean, it could be more specific. But...

Atina wrote:So that's the only reason you bothered to reply despite errors? I mentioned him cause he is a simple example that is easy to understand for all parties especially since you also dealt with him.  Seems like meh edits even after pointing out what could be checked. Just replace each name listed by  "Abraham Lincoln" so it's fine.

The problem is last time you posted only to incite us to fight around OMJ, making inconsistent comments, sometimes against OMJ and sometimes siding with him. I gave you attention because I didn't know what kind of person you are. Therefore, now it's hard to believe you mentioned him simply because he is a good example... and it's totally understandable why brick got mad at this.

Atina wrote: It's like OMJ or JPB  (shut up OMJ)...

Perhaps if you didn't say this "shut up OMJ" so directed to him I could believe you're not trying to do the same thing again. This comment is so off...

Credit for attributes/behavior of enemies and for providing.......but this is a graphics pack.

A big one which is more likely used than just small sets. You make a big pack (with effort) so put some thought (and effort) into it. It's art resource, anyone using it won't bother with that info stuff. Half the people in wolf3d community don't even know how this info or numbers relate. It's probably gonna be used also in Doom communities, what they wanna with that? It's a resource and not a mod with faulty info.. resources are fundamentals on which a mod builds and it's already crippled at that step. He managed to rip Doomjedi's enemy which wasn't even really released yet (as the Sentry Gun). I heard it's ok to rip from commercial games but not mods.

In other words:
Person A gonna download it, gonna give credit to listed people or not at all.
Then person B gets it from person A with the wrong info or none at all.
Repeat till you end up with a Mona Lisa created by Dracula.

Again, that's not how citations/sources work.

You want to mention this additional stuff and more? Simple, separate it or make a new text file dedicated to it and explaining it. Would that take much effort? I think not.

Mario Maniac wrote:The problem is last time you posted only to incite us to fight around OMJ

I didn't post last time to incite a fight around OMJ. It was that you all jump on him to get him banned while everyone else is perfectly innocent. I'm totally fine with banning that guy since he has no working brain but banning only him is hypocrisy. There are others ripping off lot stuff, not giving credits etc. So either ban all or none, everything else is bullshit. I mentioned him as a terribly obvious example of ripping/plagiarizing/doing nonsense/etc which everyone seems to dislike and everyone living under rock should know by now.

But if he didn't even consider to reply otherwise then he should have used a blog and not a forum. Or maybe blogs don't have such fancy voting buttons which save the trouble of posting replies.

That "shut up OMJ" was only meant towards OMJ cause each time you write those 3 letters he magically gonna see it but he never tries to understand the rest of the message. He will only bother me about it so ye i guess i declare a war on myself.

@doomjedi: Yes, I used GitHub as a inspiration to make medic, but I was on hires, not on lowers. So made the lowers, which took me around ten hours to make. But as I said yesterday, I didn't know about this process, so I quickly removed it from the pack to avoid damage. I hope you can forgive me, Doomjedi, not everyone is a perfect person, me included, so I shall be more careful now.

I'm open for critics and advice, and I'll gladly respond answers as soon as I have time, but for Atina, this IS to much for me.

Her behavior is disgusting, totally childish beyond belief. When I'm responding to her nicely, she become very unpleasant and obnoxious. Just as she was to Mario and Luigi two years ago. Shadow Genesis is a game that took seven years to make, and I started to create pack which took for me two years to make. And it's not finished. Shall she be the reason why my work is two years of waste? Her nitpicking about small things and and things about me she's telling which it isn't only makes me extremely furious. Right now I'm in question if I shall abandon this forum and my pack creating. All because of her behavior.

Do you love nitpicking as hobby, Atina? Sure. But my life is very short for me to do nitpicks. No matter what you write to me, I will NOT respond to you. Ever. You're earned my distrust, due to the fact that you don't understand or see other and my personal's view. And that's kindly respond.

Regardless of whatever, 10 hours on lowres guard is an impressive effort dude for one guard. Probably much less than it took me to make the hires version, but you'll probably get faster with time.

I guess ideas one can "steal" as "inspiration", you could get idea to make a lowres nazi medic from browing BoA github (which is open to public due to github terms), but design it then in less "copy" way, including the exact medic poses, outfit and medkit.

Just try to avoid BoA Chapter III spoilers (can't say for the rest of the team (!) - but I myself at least would feel much "calmer" about art use of released chapters than of unreleased ones), some might peek at github, but most - don't, and so we want to keep Chapter III spoilers and fresh ideas away from general public (so they won't become "not fresh" and "not innovative" before actual release).

brickgolem wrote:...Right now I'm in question if I shall abandon this forum and my pack creating. All because of her behavior.

Brickgolem, please stay in the forum.  You spent 7 years on Shadow Genesis.  I want to check the 500 MB of unzipped graphics tomorrow.

If we're still talking in this thread about the banned member, then I typed here in the 3rd post of a thread about why I think that I and others should keep some of our negative comments to ourselves:
https://wolf3d.darkbb.com/t3449-mod-makers-who-plagiarize-any-more-will-be-banned#30206

While I do see where Nexion and Atina are coming from, I get the notion that they are very sensitive people.

WolferCooker wrote:While I do see where Nexion and Atina are coming from, I get the notion that they are very sensitive people.

Excuse me, but why? Because we were asking to respect our and other artists work? How you would call then brickgolem and stathmk for going nuts when I just mentioned OMJ as a example of plagiarizing (one of the reasons he got banned for)?

Besides that Nexion just asked for his sprites to be removed since he didn't release them as resource? If he wants that for any reason, he can do that or ask otherwise a moderator to do his job.

stathmk wrote:If we're still talking in this thread about the banned member, then I typed here in the 3rd post of a thread about why I think that I and others should keep some of our negative comments to ourselves:

Is he now frigging Lord Voldemort that you can't write his name? Did he murder parents of a baby that it's so scary to use his name now? Also everyone online can claim to have autism. Takes 3 words.
Also you are all mean to me!!!! HELP i'm a helpless little girl being oppressed by the male dominant user group of wolf3d and their graphics patriarchy. Now i feel depressed and gonna kill myself.

oO Why you ignore the issue that brickgolem is shredding art of other people and refuses to fix it?

brickgolem wrote:Her behavior is disgusting, totally childish beyond belief. When I'm responding to her nicely, she become very unpleasant and obnoxious.

Well so far I said 3 times what's the problem (this is not a mod and a resource where credits matter more) and asked 3 times to fix the credits. So far was just whining about He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named, covering yourself and ignoring the issue. You constantly go offtopic instead.

brickgolem wrote:and I started to create pack which took for me two years to make.

OMG THAT'S SO SHOCKING. Whole 2 years of copying and ripping art and making small edits. Damn that must have been hard for you. Have you had any sleep past 2 years or you were too busy copy/pasting files around?

brickgolem wrote:You're earned my distrust, due to the fact that you don't understand or see other and my personal's view

Show me where you tried to understand my view and fixed the credits?

stathmk wrote:You spent 7 years on Shadow Genesis.

No he didn't, that was someone else making the mod. He only spent 2 years gathering graphics.

~~~~~~~~

Just cause Wolf3d community hasn't gotten any emails from id Software about copyrights the last years doesn't mean this is ok now. It also counts for users, mods and their own graphics etc. In most strict sense you could be sued by a wolf3d modder.
I repeat, spreading it in a resource pack is spreading it on purpose as a resource (as a damn base for people that need graphics).
Throwing bit here and there in mods without credits if you don't have art talent is ok. No one's perfect. If you do mistakes it's ok just learn from them one day. Not seeing an issue just cause others did so in the community only lowers the level from generation to generation (till the day it's ok to sell a Mona Lisa with moustache on wolf3d board for millions). Before 2005 or so the community probably would have shot you twice by now.

Here is a simple example outside of your bubble:
https://forum.zdoom.org/viewforum.php?f=37 (on the top)

"Before posting your Resource, please make sure you can answer YES to any of the following questions:

    Is the resource ENTIRELY my own work?
    If no to the previous one, do I have permission from the original author?
    If no to the previous one, did I put a reasonable amount of work into the resource myself, such that the changes are noticeably different from the source that I could take credit for them?

If you answered no to all three, maybe you should consider taking your stuff somewhere other than the Resources forum."

~~~~~~~~
So coming to the point. Since I asked 3 times to fix credits for all artists and you have not made any effort to do so except excusing and covering.

As written by stathmk on Tue Mar 01, 2016 12:20 pm

stathmk wrote:Plagiarism is a fine line to cross.  It’s a waste of the time & resources of the one doing the unauthorized work & of the time of the ones playing the mod.  It can only ruin the reputation of the ones copying the ideas.  When in doubt, ask permission for maps, code, layouts, graphics, sounds, music, concepts, or etc.  Please credit where you’ve gotten the intellectual property for your mod.

We have decided that anybody who still plagiarizes any more mods, especially where we can tell where it came from, will be banned from The Wolf 3D Haven.

Therefore I ask to ban brickgolem for:
- taking art of other people without asking for permission
- taking art of unreleased projects
- falsely crediting ripped art
- lots of original id Software assets
- refusing multiple times to fix issues

So now stathmk, when The Dark Lord Voldemort did such stuff you immediately banned him on forum. Now we have a case of plagiarizing art pack. Not a mod which is for playing! A resource with credits which impacts anyone using it and is spread. You gonna do as you said or will you not stay objective in the matter and let go such case of breaking rules?
~~~~~~~~

Atina wrote:Excuse me, but why? Because we were asking to respect our and other artists work? How you would call then brickgolem and stathmk for going nuts when I just mentioned OMJ as a example of plagiarizing (one of the reasons he got banned for)?

Respecting other people's work is indeed necessary. It's also perfectly fine asking to have all/some of your work removed from the pack, if that's what you wish. I don't see the respecting part here, though. Did it ever occur to you that there are nicer ways of asking things, and that you might even get more by doing so? That was a rhetorical question, obviously, we all know exactly what you expect with your posts.

Atina wrote:Well so far I said 3 times what's the problem (this is not a mod and a resource where credits matter more) and asked 3 times to fix the credits. So far was just whining about He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named, covering yourself and ignoring the issue. You constantly go offtopic instead.

Interesting view about credits mattering more in a resource. Do you really think that, or you just switched to a more inflammable view, conveniently? If you truly do, then please enlighten us all about that, pretty sure that's not common knowledge. Also, as far as I know, you were the one to bring OMJ in this conversation. Another interesting view you have, of how to maintain the subject in a topic.

Atina wrote:OMG THAT'S SO SHOCKING. Whole 2 years of copying and ripping art and making small edits. Damn that must have been hard for you. Have you had any sleep past 2 years or you were too busy copy/pasting files around?

And there's another demonstration of your lack of respect. If your point is to start a flame war here (I mean, that's not like you, but...), then you should have not called brick's work as "small edits". This has just made your argument sound like you're having a tantrum instead of properly elaborating your words. Did you even check the sprites? If you did, and you still think of this as small edits, then you must once again be remembered that not everything is about turning sprites black and white.

Atina wrote:Show me where you tried to understand my view and fixed the credits?

I agree about the credits part, maybe it could be tweaked. However, I must ask, did you realize this is an "Enemy Pack", by the way? Enemy pack as in it is more than a graphics pack, as you called it.

Atina wrote:Here is a simple example outside of your bubble:
https://forum.zdoom.org/viewforum.php?f=37 (on the top)

"Before posting your Resource, please make sure you can answer YES to any of the following questions:

    Is the resource ENTIRELY my own work?
    If no to the previous one, do I have permission from the original author?
    If no to the previous one, did I put a reasonable amount of work into the resource myself, such that the changes are noticeably different from the source that I could take credit for them?

If you answered no to all three, maybe you should consider taking your stuff somewhere other than the Resources forum."

Remarkable that you mention that. In fact, brick's work fits in the third question, in my opinion. But then again, it is really not up to you or me to judge if there has been little or lots of work.

Atina wrote:Therefore I ask to ban brickgolem for:
- taking art of other people without asking for permission
- taking art of unreleased projects
- falsely crediting ripped art
- lots of original id Software assets
- refusing multiple times to fix issues

"taking art of other people without asking for permission": this is something that has happened ever since mods started being released. In fact, if someone asks to have their work removed from the pack, it is alright. However, if you want to blame brick for this, then you must blame EVERY modder who has already did the same thing; or else, I'll just assume, again, that this is your tantrum-like behavior instead of well formed arguments.

"taking art of unreleased projects": this could be a problem, indeed. however, as you can see, brick has already removed those sprites.

"falsely crediting ripped art": really? The title says "Enemy Pack". Once again, this is NOT a graphics pack. You seem to have assumed that for some reason, now you're believing in that fanciful bubble you created for yourself.

"refusing multiple times to fix issues": Refusing? I think "fanciful bubble" was one hell of an euphemy. It's more like a fanciful universe or something.

Atina wrote:So now stathmk, when The Dark Lord Voldemort did such stuff you immediately banned him on forum. Now we have a case of plagiarizing art pack. Not a mod which is for playing! A resource with credits which impacts anyone using it and is spread. You gonna do as you said or will you not stay objective in the matter and let go such case of breaking rules?

While I agree that the credits section is somehow confusing, as it doesn't really makes it clear the part on which each person worked, his intention was never to plagiarize anything. Unlike the other banned guy, he released this pack with the intention of being helpful to the community. Also, the ones who decide if any rules have been broken or not are the moderators and administrators. It is not up to you to come here and agitate against other members by flaming. But, if you insist and we are pointing fingers here, then I say that you must be banned under the rule of "No flaming". I think we can all agree that we have enough evidence to ban you for that.

Golem, fix the credits. Be safer than sorry. If in a week's time I find out the credit issue is not nuked into oblivion I have to do something.

Atina, calm the hell down. Forum rules don't just apply to people who break some rule. The more problem somebody is for the forum the easier it is to justify moderation against that person.

Every time I get an email from Stathmk it's because somebody got into a fight on here.

Allright then, I’ll speak shortly:

I’ve decided to remove this download link to avoid damage. This doesn’t mean I’ll quit this pack, as I’ll still working on it. Once the pack is fixed and I declared it’s finished, it’s gonna be revealed.
So therefore, I’ll hope we’ll put a dead end for this post. This was not the situation I’ve wanted, but I would like to thank someone that supported me, as I usually wants to avoid conflicts. And to someone that didn’t like this, sorry to everyone (except the pink bunny).

And also, I’ll stay on this forum after some rounds of refreshening, Stathmk, as long as the pink bunny stays away from me.

It's okay to dissagree, lets try to avoid offending each other and lesser the flames a bit.

Don't want to get into this "fight" - I'll voice my opinion though.

1. I don't think he intentionally meant to discredit (and did alot of effort to credit, and didn't credit himself for art of others) and as long as he corrects credits when requested I think it's fair enough.
I don't think he intentionally used art of unreleased mods, github is of public access and not all played all of released BoA chapters to know which enemy was utilized and which not yet, he also removed it by request (and it was a lowres recreation of hires BoA art, not an exact copy, and it did take him quite some time to make, it would for me). Yes, he should be more careful (and the team was angry), but he fixed it.

We don't need to make him feel like a criminal, miscredit is one thing one can rightfully refer to (and an important issue to raise/talk/refer to by itself), but intent - one seem to be accusing him of - one should be able to prove, and it's hard to do in such cases especially as each folder had credits list showing effort in that direction.

It would be better for this discussion (I was a "defender" in such discussion before so know it from first experience) - for all to assume noone wanted to "do evil" and "claim art of others" (sure not in his mind, didn't wake up and decided "I want to steal"), and the credits mistakes he did while making the pack - we can discuss and correct - in much more efficient way.
I know I myself never meant to miscredit or claim art of others as mine - even when I missed the credit and should rightfully get remarks on the issue. I'm not an evil person - and making artpack didn't suddenly "raise evil in me". Modding is alot about using art made by others and it's hard to perfectly credit all involved - though we should always aim for that and sure immediately correct when noted.

2. I have no reason not to believe his amount of effort on this huge pack, and though some changes seem light (recoloring only, and some are there "as is"), others might be large, pack is so big it's hard to check, unless he claims big changes to ALL pack enemies (then it's an obvious lie).

3. Artpacks are complicated issue.

From one side - I think such packs in general are important to modders. Because most people don't have time to browse all various modding forums for art (like I do on Zdoom and others), and this brings more art to their awareness/use (I myself made art of my older RELEASED mods and artpacks free for credited modding use. Though artpacks is indeed another thing, I'd prefer to keep my released art to my artpacks and not of others (unless heavy enough edit), credited use in actual mods is totally legit).

On the other hand (!)  - artpacks are also very problematic in general (especially if they are not from his mods), not only the "proper credits" issue - but also because just crediting the original maker - doesn't make it legit - as not all modders released their art even for credited use. Maker should be able to control the use of his art in other artpacks and mods, some release it for free use, most - for credited use only (intending usually mods, not for it to become part of other artpack), others might not want other use of their art AT ALL, and it's their right.

So while those packs help modding, they backfire most of the time on their makers for some valid reasons.

I think Atina is oversensitive to the matter (proper credits being though totally important and legit issue to handle/raise/discuss), but the maker of the pack need to make much more effort on the pack credits-wise to comply with many of her claims.

Mega Luigi wrote:Respecting other people's work is indeed necessary. It's also perfectly fine asking to have all/some of your work removed from the pack, if that's what you wish. I don't see the respecting part here, though. Did it ever occur to you that there are nicer ways of asking things, and that you might even get more by doing so? That was a rhetorical question, obviously, we all know exactly what you expect with your posts.

So you have a preset mind about my posts despite that i repeat my points trying to make it clear.
The thing is, I did ask just fine. I repeated myself to a point I started to get belittled for no good reason. If you think otherwise please quote me where did I sound disrespectful at first? Harsh sure, sarcastic possible.

I pointed it out long ago already. If you ban one person for something then you should ban others too or it ends in subjective hypocrisy.
If you think what i said is more than harsh criticism after repeating myself over and over again and you think it's ban-worthy flaming then go ahead. But again I'm not the only one who should be banned then, see above. I see also who came by for drive by down-voting without posting anything
Cause ganging up as a group with or without reason on one person seems nice as well or?

Mega Luigi wrote:And there's another demonstration of your lack of respect.

Yes and you know why? Check previous posts of brickgolem what he said about me. Why shall i bother to stay respectful to someone who is not respectful towards me after repeatedly being too dense. As I mentioned before, feel free to quote where was I mean enough to be called "unpleasant and obnoxious and disgusting behavior"?

It seems it needs hellfire first before someone considers to look at the issue. Would anyone have made those plagiarism rules or bothered to fix this resource otherwise? Would have there been any change if Dark_Wizzie wouldn't have posted?

Mega Luigi wrote:Interesting view about credits mattering more in a resource. Do you really think that, or you just switched to a more inflammable view, conveniently? If you truly do, then please enlighten us all about that, pretty sure that's not common knowledge. Also, as far as I know, you were the one to bring OMJ in this conversation. Another interesting view you have, of how to maintain the subject in a topic.

I thought I made it clear but ok. Think of it like this. You are creating mod and you are not an artist, so you look for graphic sources. You can do 2 things, download mods and rip graphics directly from them. Then you know where graphics came from and who made them (assuming mod author was properly putting sources). OR you get a sprite pack and you believe all info in it is solid and decently written, because art pack is prepared and ready to use. [Edit: OMJ served as simple example that everyone can refer to easily. He did lot of things wrong but it should be also possible for others to learn from some of his mistakes or not?]
Now, whats the point of having inaccurate info to be spread around (see bad Wikipedia sources)?

Mega Luigi wrote:did you realize this is an "Enemy Pack", by the way? Enemy pack as in it is more than a graphics pack, as you called it.

Glad you pointed it out. So it has even more importance cause there are less people making enemy sets and more people downloading such. Well enemy pack is a graphic pack with additional info (according to statements here), that lets be honest, no one gonna use. People can set health to enemies as they please but what they really gonna look for is graphic set for enemies since that is something that takes massive amount of time. Pretty sure if someone is looking for a enemy set he just gonna need sprites and not info how to set them exactly up like in game X. Besides making ripped resources act exactly like in their games is not a brilliant idea either. You don't copy only the visual part but also the character behind it.

Because it's such a big pack you should also put the effort into the stuff behind it and not just the content itself. If you work for 2 years on it then why is there less or no time spent on a simple text file? It's gonna work as a base for works of other people. And not only people from wolf3d. And I'm pretty sure the goal of the pack is supposed to be a base for other people to work with.

Mega Luigi wrote:Remarkable that you mention that. In fact, brick's work fits in the third question, in my opinion. But then again, it is really not up to you or me to judge if there has been little or lots of work.

Well if graphics have been taken without any edit, will you call that lot effort or also wont judge? Who is it up to then, the author itself?
His edits/effort should be acknowledged and valued while it's ok to devalue others who did more?

I's ok to post plenty of id Software assets? Is it ok to post here some old commercial DOS games cause no one cares anyways? Is it ok to post here low-budget movies to download cause they are not Hollywood? If not, where do you draw the line?
If it's not breaking rules, laws then it's gonna lower the tolerance each year till you reach the bottom without any standards and dragging the quality down along the way.

What you seem to have issues with is seeing it from an artist point of view. There aren't many artists around and sprites around here are quite often treated like a means to an end. There is room for mistakes, there is room for improvement. No one's perfect. I ignore plenty of mods with such issues. It's one person without art talent or this and that. But heck if same person still keeps doing it after 10 mods then wtf. This is not a mod which you download and play but a large resource full of enemy sets.
How would it be if someone took your maps (or code or music), edited it a bit and made a map pack from it with such info text?

Mega Luigi wrote:About the ban.

Don't defend ripping off anything with the words "everyone is doing that, so it's ok". It keeps spiraling til it's ok that anyone can shoot anyone. Everyone is jumping off a bridge so let's do that too.
I will repeat it again... it is not a mod, it is an art pack (enemy pack if it makes you happier) and it made ready to go for the public.
If someone keeps ignoring request to change it after few posts and face-palming then for me it is a case of refusing to fix it up. If i was too harsh ok but does it make the point any less valid and not question yourself if you should take a look again?

brickgolem wrote:as I usually wants to avoid conflicts. And to someone that didn’t like this, sorry to everyone (except the pink bunny).

He could have always backed down as well or not? We are both stubborn but that doesn't change the objective point.

Dark_wizzie wrote:Atina, calm the hell down. Forum rules don't just apply to people who break some rule. The more problem somebody is for the forum the easier it is to justify moderation against that person.
Every time I get an email from Stathmk it's because somebody got into a fight on here.

I am calm >< there is just a limit of nonsense towards me I can take before turning too sarcastic. Seems like people don't get point until you passively manage to summon an admin which is kinda sad.

Well He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named, got ban here for a reason of plagiarizing. So I wonder about a statement from Stathmk. Will he ban all such cases or only those who he doesn't like himself?
I am sorry to say but a person who can't make admin decisions on his own, needs to write another admin in case of a conflict, constantly goes offtopic, is not objective and might not be the right person for such a role.
I'm not asking for a ban and he removed it now anyways. So despite brickgolem being stubborn it's good to hear he wants to fix it.

brickgolem wrote:as long as the pink bunny stays away from me.

pink bunny safety space zones needed

doomjedi wrote:...

I think here I agree with most, except that I am oversensitive. I write here from view point of an artist also for OTHER ARTISTS. You say you are artist too. Tell me how would you feel if someone takes my or your work and doesn't mention my or your name or devalues your efforts? Sooner or later it would hit a limit.

Atina wrote:...Also everyone online can claim to have autism. ...

No.

Please everyone, don’t fight each other. I will that everyone shall be friendly each other and respect each other. Wait for my edit within a few hours. I want to put this argument to an end on a right way...

Edit: I want to put a closure on this argument. If it's started somehow, I will bring up a huge bucket of water or a freezethrower to extinguish it.
So I speak to not myself, but to anybody...

Please understand everyone that it's nobody's fault within this situation. Yes, I did something wrong, but I did it, learned a lesson and pay the price rather than flee away. But I think we can learn something about our errors and understand each other what and how we can do it better. We have different meanings about this, and we have to be open of our meanings and thoughts to do better to this forum.

First off, I speak to Atina, which I bury my battle axe to the ground. Let me give you advice of how it's working:

• Please, don't do nitpicks, just be straight in the case of words. Less is more.
  
• Be professional about what you disagree, like Nexion and DoomJedi did with me. Quotes like "Please remove it, thanks!" or something is more than enough that I will react.
  
• Give the other person you respond opportunity to speak, instead to quickly be the first to comment to gain upper hand.
  
• Respect and understand other people's view and privacy. We don't know what we're doing behind our computers.
  
• We are people with different meanings, and even if you disagree, rather find a solution rather than arguing other members.
  

I, myself, didn't want to give Atina a bad reputation, but my anger was based on mishap together and bad communication that could easily be handled in another way. Nitpicking is not a smart decision for some circumstances. Because she's a great modder, and one of the reason why Team Raycast and "Witching Hour" has gained good reputation. One day, when I have time, I will play "Witching Hour" and give comment what I feel about that. 

Speaking of reputation, here's something I will mention, which I feel is very important:

If a modder or an artist, or better, a talented modder/artist, shows in the forum public or in PM, it's very important to focus on the positive way first. Not negative way first. That can build up the reputation and good faith to the modder/artist to continue further on the working process. And also good feedback as well. Then afterwards, in a good manner, critizise and nitpicks something not good to make mods/arts better. This way grows forum and harvest more talents to create games.
If we focus only on the negative first, and only the negative, that can only destroy the reputation for the modders/artists. One example of that is "Krucible" released autumn 2016 by Soldat 555 on DHW and moddb.com. It took for him several months to make this game finished, but negative comments about glitches and bugs came first rather than positive feedbacks, and despite one update, he finally removed this game out of public, calling this total wasteless. I feel very sorry for him.
That is not we want this to be (unless it's plagiats or replicas).

Speaking of sprites, I'm totally agree with DoomJedi. We must be open to talented artists who make sprites, despite being original, have variations, copy and paste with a good result, sprites based on other sprites and so on. That's how it works and how it grows. Think of how many variations of nazi guards have been based of nazi sprites created by Wolf Skevos-Jones. With good results.
I, myself, is very proud of making robots. Take for example techs. The original is based from Mecha Sentinel from Blake Stone. From that, I've managed to create 16 variants of this model. But it's was not an easy thing to do. It's was based on thinking outside of the box, how it moves, how it looks, how they carry weapons, color separating and so on. I always choose a difficult way to make things, but as long as it's not impossible, the result shows. That's how it works.
About credits, DoomJedi pointed out correctly, as misleading could cause some confusements. This should be fixed soon.

Please understand that what I'm saying is very important for the forum. Arguments is not a good things to resolve problems, it only makes worse. And if we start harrasing and trolling each other for no reason, this is going to far. Within one or two weeks, I'll send PM to Dark_Wizzie and Stathmk about problems of internet trolls/abusements and how we shall resolve it, but this will make this forum much safer, I'll think.

And finally, everything about the banned member is a closed chapter. We have to move further. Same goes to this argument, although we'll take the knowledge what we learned from that episodes. We must respect and understand each other, please.

Thanks.

PS.: I'll be not so much active on this forum. Right now I'm focusing reviewing heavy metal albums on my Facebook site. Henced by the Rammstein avatar.

Edit: I've been looking retrospectively about the release one week ago, and found out that I could have done in different ways. For example, sending the download link on PM rather than public or sending the pack containing only new, unseen materials. So I'll think I rushed a bit earlier that way. But done is done, and I've learned what I shall do right.

Christ Almighty. He-must-who-not-be-named got banned because not only he blatantly copied other peoples work (ESPECIALLY maps), he kept doing it repeatedly and also REFUSED to take our warnings seriously. All of that plus he always demanded us to do something for him like a spoiled kid without him doing the hard work; a true half-asser with no imagination and/or originality.

His actions were the TRUE definition of not respecting the community and one who took their works for granted. I quickly got taken to the woodshed by you guys when I first joined because I was just like that and I quickly learned the hard way at the price of losing WSJ's respect.

Brickgolem is NOWHERE near the levels of him. Some of his sprites are INDEED creative and he DOES respect others work.

I agree with some but also disagree with some of it. I won't go into it too detailed except those points directly towards me.

brickgolem wrote:Please, don't do nitpicks, just be straight in the case of words. Less is more.

Just cause i set "nitpicking" as hobby in my profile doesn't mean it's true and it shouldn't let you influence on keeping an open mind about arguments. If it's still nitpicking for you, ok. From my point of view it's not for obvious reasons.

brickgolem wrote:Be professional about what you disagree, like Nexion and DoomJedi did with me. Quotes like "Please remove it, thanks!" or something is more than enough that I will react.

Sure it works for those 2 cause they requested it for their own graphics. I pointed out stuff not made by me which caused other reaction or maybe i should have demanded it to be removed like the other 2. The question then is, should it stay as it is if not each author asks?

brickgolem wrote:Give the other person you respond opportunity to speak, instead to quickly be the first to comment to gain upper hand.

I pointed out and waited for a reply. Same goes the other side instead of ganging up on one person, voting madness, pming admin to gain the upper hand =p

brickgolem wrote:Respect and understand other people's view and privacy. We don't know what we're doing behind our computers.
We are people with different meanings, and even if you disagree, rather find a solution rather than arguing other members.

Solutions are not always easy and sometimes you can't avoid an argue. For the better or worse. Sometimes bad things have to happen first so things change to the better.

brickgolem wrote:Because she's a great modder, and one of the reason why Team Raycast and "Witching Hour" has gained good reputation.

Thanks but i'm still far from that and i haven't really contributed much to Team Raycast for that ><

I think the 2nd half of the post makes largely a good point. Anyways, argues are there to be solved.
It's not always fair and not everything can be positive. If something is brought up in a neutral way it shouldn't matter if it's positive or negative as long as it has some weight.

WolferCooker wrote:...

Sure he pushed all to the extreme, also the forum rules. Brickgolem is nowhere near that but where do you draw the line regarding plagiarizing rules? Stathmk set them up for a reason or was it just as excuse to ban one person?
There are all the original Doom enemies without changes (about 20 sets), then lots of subversions with small changes, original wolf3d enemies, subversions with small changes, the 2 cases above and so on.
Are you objectively about that when you defend him or cause he is a friend or so? Sure there is a lot more in the pack, also a lot of modified stuff by him which is appreciated and in the end the more new graphics the better but not always does the end justify the means.

WolferCooker wrote:he blatantly copied other peoples work (ESPECIALLY maps)

Not directed to you but generally. If it's graphics barely anyone seems to bother. If music, no one cares i think? If it's map people get burned at a stake. Is making an enemy set or a song less effort than making a map? There are a lot out there who are doing this to smaller or bigger degree. Boundaries tend to collapse over time if everyone keeps doing so.

@Atina wrote:
Stathmk set them up for a reason or was it just as excuse to ban one person?

There you wrong, Atina. There's are still some people coming here or in DHW forums who only come with a purpose to spam posts or harass/bully everyone. Those people's getting banned immideatly and posts deleted, but it's done in silence or by PM, in fear to keep attention to all internet trolls. The banned member is mentioned as an example of a member who started well and had some potentials, but ended up quite pretentious and did almost all kind of things of what's unacceptable. And did not listen to our advice and warnings. The ban was not based by hatred, but a case that all our efforts to turn him to the right path was useless, and ban was the only option we had, as he had damaged a lot of the forum. And despite over a year ago he's been thrown out, he's still the same brat as we know and hasn't learned anything. He is an internet troll, under the category "crybaby" or "lame teenage".

Ok, I promise, this is definitely my last speech of the banned member.