"Peace-making" bludgeons from the USA??

In the speech on May, 19th US president Barack Obama, has stated a position of Washington concerning occurring events in the Near East and in the North Africa. As he said, for the last half a year here there were global changes thanks to which inhabitants of region tyrannies have risen against "and a system have gone towards democracy". Thereupon Obama has promised and further to advance democracy in the Arabian countries, in parallel advancing peaceful settlement of the palestino-Israeli conflict.
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As you think. Performance of president USA is on May, 19th the war manifesto to all to those who doesn't dance under the American pipe?
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Interesting and what will do the Israeli people with borders of 1967?
By the way doomjedi.. your house in what territory will appear if borders remove?

Akuul, what country are you in? I thought that you once posted a link to a cyrillic page about Wolfenstein 3D. Are you in Russia?

I think Obama made the wrong move to not only forgive a debt but GIVE FREE MONEY to a country just to promote democracy, especially when this type of thing hasn't really been shown to even work.

Akuul wrote:
Interesting and what will do the Israeli people with borders of 1967?

The same thing we did with those before 1967 Lived happily in a known and (wordly) legitimate and accepted borders , without opressing other people and treating them like "second sort" of humans (which they are, according to jewish religion).

Well, you mean 1967 borders with territory swaps? You mean that BORDER everyone knows any future agreement with Palestinians will be based about? Obama has much more supporters here than you might think. Though russian immigrants automatically took the right wing - Israel is not Russia that can never allow itself to compromise it's territory...Israel gave land quite a few times in the past, and will keep doing that, as "land for peace" is the only way anyone can go, there is no other base for negotiations.
We are doing this for ourselves, not for the Palestinians....I couldn't care less about the Palestinians, their future - is in their hands, and if they don't want secure and independent future for themselves in prosperity - noone will or should convince them,sure not me...The (only) issue is - occupation is bad for us, for Israel...and Israel is the only state I care about. Occupation corrupts our hearts, spends tons of our money of building things that will be removed in any agreement, all the military and security expenses...to protect settlers from palestinians - and palestinians from settlers...and religious fanatics from others and from themselves...and others from them.... It hurts our international and regional legitimacy and connections... etc etc....

By the way doomjedi.. your house in what territory will appear if borders remove?

...taking into account the future land swaps which will be part of any real solution - not much jews (if any) will be left beyond Israel's borders (and those who will move - will get a "over-million" compensation)...that's the whole purpose of land swaps - large jewish population spots will be given to Israel, and other lands will be added to Palestinian state... Arabs agree to that, always did.
Also, hundred thousands of Arabs/palestinians happily live in Israel 1967 borders as legitimite , happy and equial Israeli Citizens and take active part in Israei life and all areas... I work in a college that more than 50% of students are arabs and are treated most well Better than in any future palestinian state, that's why all Israeli arabs protest not to be added to Palestinian state under future land swaps....
So why some jewish settlers can't live the same way as legitimate minority under Palestinian state? IMO people should live whenever they want to If the land and specific geographic location is more important for them than which country rules them... Many jews live abroad, so what?

But this doesn't answer your question, so let me get back to the topic.

That's an interesting question...you probably think that we treat the territory beyond 1967 borders as ours and do not remember where is came from and what it's it's status... Only naiive people, and people who care nothing but low housing prices - and blind religios fanatics/settlers who think all Israel land was given to us by GOD and should all belong to us - live there.... normal people doesn't. It's not like normal land... Whould you build your house in a land that is under dispute with arabs and it's future is pretty much known to be passed to Arab state? Whould you? I ask you?
Whould you live far from everything...surrounded by arabs who hate you and try to kill you... and think you opress them and take their land? Whould you? Whould you live in a place where you and your children can be killed sleeping at night in your home by terrorist? Where each time you drive your car - people throw stones at you and try to shoot you and you drive your children to schools like in war - in armored vehicles...under army protection....with army permission?
Whould you live in a land where your security needs cause much humiliation, road blocks, opressing to nearby Palestinians who can't live, work, move freely...?
Where no Israeli law is enforced or exist...."nobody's land"....outlaw...

No...you need to be a religious fanatic for that... blinded by fake patriotism and twisted religious crazyness...
And naiive russian immigrants that were lured to those places with low house prices and didn't know a thing about history or politics...or were brainwashed by "russian-style" nationalism and patriotism.... The actual facts are that for me to buy such a large house (especially with land) within legitimate borders - I need to work 2-3 generations to earn money too... And there it's "an american dream" of cheap housing...but the time of a "real price" will come...

So - to you question - NO. Those areas are not seen by most Israeli people as part of Israel (actors even refuse to perform in those areas...) - and even for those who do see them as such - it too unattractive and too dangerous to live in. So no - I don't live even close to those lands that are under dispute. So don't worry about me
Population centers of more normal people (those naiive russian immigrants) will stay in Israel under land swaps...and those crazy fanatics I feel nothing in common with - will have to make their choices in those lone settlements...

Every healthy state needs borders...defined...Russia has borders defined...and not under dispute... It's like if you wouldn't know where your physical body ends and the rest of the world starts...how could you live? How whould you enter a door...lift a pen...?

Also you forget that the same fate will happen to Golan heights... The most beautiful, breathtaking green part of Israel...as it belongs to Suria and will be given to her under any future agreement. We have actually even more "settlers" there and this will be hard to remove...

doomjedi wrote:Every healthy state needs borders...defined...Russia has borders defined...and not under dispute...

Russia stole and plundered loads of Eastern Europe, annexed the Baltics and parts of Finland and stole East Prussia as well. The fact that it's still considered "OK" is beyond me.

stathmk wrote:Akuul, what country are you in? I thought that you once posted a link to a cyrillic page about Wolfenstein 3D. Are you in Russia?

Yes I live in Russia

doomjedi wrote:..

The Prime minister of Israel Binjamin Netanjahu has refused to consider borders of 1967 as a basis for peace talks under the palestino-Israeli conflict. As he said, this step will threaten the population of the country and will leave abroad the Israeli settlements.

Thomas wrote:Russia stole and plundered loads of Eastern Europe, annexed the Baltics and parts of Finland and stole East Prussia as well.

It would be better if the Eastern Europe remained territory of the Third Reich?
But still it is interesting to ask about other - Also what now? The USA becomes the former Soviet Union?

Akuul wrote:It would be better if the Eastern Europe remained territory of the Third Reich?

Certainly not, but you can't help but agree that it didn't help one bit. It was one new sick ideology with another moustached madman at the wheel.

Thomas wrote:

Akuul wrote:It would be better if the Eastern Europe remained territory of the Third Reich?

Certainly not, but you can't help but agree that it didn't help one bit. It was one new sick ideology with another moustached madman at the wheel.

Any ideology can bear madness. But, as it seems to me, the latent dictatorship is more dangerous.

Akuul wrote:
The Prime minister of Israel Binjamin Netanjahu has refused to consider borders of 1967 as a basis for peace talks under the palestino-Israeli conflict.

This is a basic media manipulation.
It's a known discussion trick to take fake representation of the "other claim" and "beat it up" - to claim victory. This can only trick the weak-minded.
Both sides (+ Obama + the rest of the world) knows how the final agreement will look - including borders and the rest. Km here and there - is neglectable for any mature discussion.
Noone thinks Tel Aviv will be Palestinian, or Ramallah to be Israeli.... 1967 is the base - but with land swaps (to take into account population changes since 1967 to maximize number of Israelis under Israeli state) - generally accepted already by both sides for many years... Palestinians don't want those jewish settlers (some of them very violent and fanatic) in their state anyway...but they want other land instead....
So "1967 borders" are a keyword for a long time now for "1967 borders with land swaps, up to 20%"....so in no way those are 1967 borders.

As he said, this step will threaten the population of the country

The usual "Israel is a small white and furry state surrounded by evil enemies blah blah blah....". Like we didn't manage to defend ourselves within the same "so undefendable" borders in 1967... Maybe USA will add a part of Canada too, to make Canadians farther from it's population in case of war...let's allow every country in the world to take land of other country - just for it's security needs....to feel more safe... Iran will take some land of Iraq - so their citizens will be farther from possible Iraq attacks...etc...
Every country needs to defend itself from from it's own legitimate borders - and if you can't - your problem. Taking land of others is not legal.

I don't care what is Israel's problems to defend itself. You cannot take land of others (not yours!) just to feel more secure. Why Israeli fears - are Palestinian problems? Israel can (and did in the past) defend itself in any borders. Not to mention USA military assistance in case of peace agreement.
Why do you see only Israeli problems? Israel cannot have that land for many reasons:
1. Lack of any legal legitimacy under any international law
2. You can't make Palestinian country a group of small ghettos/islands - any Country needs a continual territory (An so Palestinians can't agree on any agreement that leaves most of the smaller settlements intact (as Israeli army always needs presence and road blocks to protect them))... Otherwise every palestinian after peace agreement will still see and stand and humiliate itself on Israeil borders/road blocks/security blocks - just to move from town to town within THEIR, Palestinian country...would you like "proud" Russia to be such set of land islands divided by ...let's say.... Turkish road blocks - just to move from village to village and from town to town? With soldiers, guns, bodychecks, long lines...death by mistake for everything that looked for soldiers like a gun, even a toy gun....5 hours to reach workplace....or hospital....

Settlements - their whole goal - and exact geographical planning (just like in a game of dots) was to divide and capture land - in a way that will prevent any future Palestinian country - and so any peace agreements with the other side. Do you want them to win? Settlements divide possible Palestinian state into small ghettos...so either settlements are removed - or no Palestinian state can be defined. Settlements are a rope on a neck of Palestinian future.
They take every piece of dignity out of Palestinians...freedom....respect....
Did you see the current map of settlements? and map of possible Palestinian state? First take a look - and then make your own opinion - can settlements stay or not. Or do you want Palestinians to feel like they are going abroad each time they move from city to city?



Would Russians agree to give it's land to Turkey just for it to feel more safe?

Army and land doesn't protect a country (especially not in modern rocket warfare...and especially not for terrorist-style warware)...Lack of motivation from others to attack...Peace agreements...commercial, cultural and human ties and common local interests with it's neighbours ... Better education and better financial state of it's neighbours...normality....those protect a country from wars.

and will leave abroad the Israeli settlements.

Nonsence... Those Settlements are illegal under international law - and so are a war crime. So legally - they need to be removed. But again - under land swaps - most of larger Settlements will stay in Israel - and smaller (including ones they Settlers started to make in those very days in fear of possible peace agreement) - will be removed. Every settler will get conpensation if he moves back to legal Israeli borders. You can like it - or not - but this is EXACTLY how any possible peace agreement will look. There is no other way.

doomjedi wrote:..who will move - will get a "over-million" compensation..

If figures are true that number of settlers on the Western coast at signing of the contract of Oslo in 1993 didn't exceed 105 thousand, and the number of settlements made about hundred. Today the quantity of settlers - more than 305 thousand, i.e. has grown three times, the number of settlements exceeds 200.
I doubt that all are waited by indemnification. By the way as far as it is known among settlers the majority of those who has run away from Soviet Union. On what territories them plan to move?
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And here if as regards borders that why not to remember that that the State of Texas is territory of Mexico. Later it was on the the independent republic and so on. And if to continue to develop thought that USA in general the country of aggressors. It not the criticism is the fact..
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By the way I like westerns, the American garage rock 1963 - 1968 (there is a small collection). Simply I want to tell that all this show with "democracy" export reminds the worst pages of Communism and Nazism.

Akuul wrote:
If figures are true that number of settlers on the Western coast at signing of the contract of Oslo in 1993 didn't exceed 105 thousand, and the number of settlements made about hundred. Today the quantity of settlers - more than 305 thousand, i.e. has grown three times, the number of settlements exceeds 200.

Exact numbers are not that important. You get the picture.

I doubt that all are waited by indemnification.

They are (Gaza withdrawal as example...it's not like we didn't remove settlements before...even large ones. Every one got multimillion compensation...)
Though they don't deserve it. To be honest.

1. They were fully aware of the problematic state of those lands in any future agreement - before they moved there. That's why they got low prices for homes, and could built homes I can't earn in 20 years. The same house in Tel Aviv costs 5 times more.

2. We, Israel - paid for their well-being, roads, infrastructure, compensation to terror victims on those danger roads, billions of shekels on army to protect them there in army bases, weaponry.... THEY HAVE TO PAY ISRAEL COMPENSATION - in a perfect world. Them being there - cost us HUGE amount of money... HUUUUUUUGE......

3. They being there - made political, financial and other damage to Israel...terror...losing tourism....

By the way as far as it is known among settlers the majority of those who has run away from Soviet Union. On what territories them plan to move?

To Israel territory. We have plenty of land in Negev for example...


....to add to what I said about security fears - it's all political, nothing to do with security. Half of Military Cheifs - who are left-winged - explain how those borders are safe...and the other half - how those borders can't be protected....so it's not security issues - each has an opinion on this depending on their political view.
It's all politics.

doomjedi wrote:

Akuul wrote:..in 1993 didn't exceed 105 thousand, and the number of settlements made about hundred. Today the quantity of settlers - more than 305 thousand, i.e. has grown three times, the number of settlements exceeds 200.

Exact numbers are not that important. They are (Gaza withdrawal as example...

Gaza? As far as it is known only a part of immigrants took money. The most part has believed in the governmental program. How many from them now lives in the houses and how many lives in "mobile country houses" (barracks)?
According to news the portal about life in Israel (mignews.com) - 81 % evacuated remains without habitation.
Immigrants (Gaza) was nearby 9000. Now there can be a question on tens, hundreds thousand..
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And still the irony in other article has truly sounded (mignews.com) - Israel should obey Washington and then Washington will protect him up to the end. It doesn't matter that its performances weaken positions of Israel in the Near-Eastern conflict. Because of ocean the true is more visible. The main thing – to rely on America and not to argue with its presidents, especially when they count on the second cadence
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It reminds me one toy..
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..where the simple person will always lose

Akuul wrote:
Gaza? As far as it is known only a part of immigrants took money. The most part has believed in the governmental program. How many from them now lives in the houses and how many lives in "mobile country houses" (barracks)?

I don't know about 1-2 ideologists who might have refused to take money...but everyone else sure took, and we are talking about millions each. But as they took themselves into a state of constant nostalgy and self-pity and victimhood - they didn't work, spend all the millions on food and such...they never had before so much actual money on their hands...didn't know what to do with it...started gambling, playing on Bourse...lost their money to manipulators there...being naiive...They didn't understand they have to build up a new life...and not waste money...
And now they have no money for a new house and life...And expect us to re-give them all that huge money.... I (and other normal hard working people) can only dream of such.

According to news the portal about life in Israel (mignews.com) - 81 % evacuated remains without habitation.

Quite manipulative numbers...though sure true at least partually.
The point is - that they didn't want to live like normal people, they are too spoiled and separate...like a sect...didn't want to live in normal houses and places...they wanted all to live together...life as before...and so we needed to build new "cities", villages, infrustructure from zero for them...and it takes much more time.
They refused any solutions of apartments in existing cities, neighbourhoods...what is good for us, normal people - is too bad for them.
We , normal people....not priveleged settlers - can't choose our neighbours....in a building, area of a city... But they wanted to choose people just like them to live with...who think what they do etc...as other lifestyles are a danger to them and their brainwash of their next generation...like amish....
They wanted settlements - just in legal territory of Israel...to be copied as they were in Gaza... with alot of land itc...

So...they have at least 50% of the blame why it took so long.

Immigrants (Gaza) was nearby 9000. Now there can be a question on tens, hundreds thousand..

Again - not with land swaps... The most fanatic lone settlements don't have those russian immigrants - those are only in larger settlement blocks (mostly the city of Ariel), and Ariel and such will stay in Israel under land swaps.
Most settlements to be removed (that are NOT part of larger settlement blocks) are VERY small..just a few blocks, karavans. on hills.....much less that any Gaza settlement we removed. The idea was just to hold a place...placeholder...to prevent arabs to build on their land. It's not alot of people...
Just a bunch of violent religious fanatics.

...yesterday on TV , known former army Cheif said - "Any border ANY border...can be protected. Give me a border line - and I'll protect it. There are no undefendable borders"...That's why those generals earn so much money - to protect their state. It's not Palestinian problem...it's our army doing their job.

Also it was most funny to listen to Netaniahu yesterday....about democracy...against fundamentaslism etc....
Such a hyppo.... He (Israel) officially finanses, supports the most fanatic, anti-democratic and non-free Orthodox jews, who are more Iran than Iran...in their life, treatment to freedom, democracy, women, violence....
So it's only ok to support and legitimize fanatic Theocracy if those are your people....

doomjedi wrote:The point is - that they didn't want to live like normal people, they are too spoiled and separate...like a sect... <...> They refused any solutions of apartments in existing cities, neighbourhoods...what is good for us, normal people - is too bad for them. <...> They wanted settlements - just in legal territory of Israel...to be copied as they were in Gaza... with alot of land itc.. <...>

Interesting words. While settlers were necessary they were good. While they carried out the role had the right to the way of life
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Now they superfluous also became abnormal and religious fanatics.?
Certainly the history knows similar examples. Similar occurred and in the USA.

doomjedi wrote:<...> ... Most settlements to be removed (that are NOT part of larger settlement blocks) are VERY small..just a few blocks, karavans. on hills... <...>

One image (scheme)
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By the way there was more detailed card
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Also it is how much possible to understand people in the given territory has located much.. If to consider that in last resettlement there were problems, conversations, discontent that good preparation would become the best the decision. For example - if people want new "cities", villages, infrustructure from zero.. That why it not to make and can be even to begin already now. But it certainly an ideal variant.

Akuul wrote:
Interesting words. While settlers were necessary they were good. While they carried out the role had the right to the way of life

Nessesary for what? What is one good thing that came from settlements?
What role did they carry? I'm not sure I'm aware of one.... Protecting us? We have army for that...and they were the ones that needed protection.

Well...what you say - is partially true... in a political way. But how stupid you need to be to be a mindless tool in hands of politicians? How blind politically you need to be to really think those lands will not be returned to Palestinian - or thinking cheap housing are cheap for no reason? IMO they were far from naiive... Noone was misled....they just used the situation - to invite themselves there...to please their Gods...

In general - I don't believe in victims... they are far from victims... they did it out of Religious "God gave us all this land" agenda.

Now they superfluous also became abnormal and religious fanatics.?

They always were.

If to consider that in last resettlement there were problems, conversations, discontent that good preparation would become the best the decision

Nice way to say "total lack of cooperation by the settlers that lead for lack of good solutions for them and delayed compensation"

For example - if people want new "cities", villages, infrustructure from zero.. That why it not to make and can be even to begin already now. But it certainly an ideal variant.

Already having orthodox fanatics having cities of their own...arabs.... - we can't allow any more separation...if a person is not exposed to different views, people....they become more and more fanatic, extreme, closed....a sect....
Maybe you will build cities for gays, for clowns, for blacks..... ideal variant. IMO this is dangerous, and stupid.

I can't choose my neighbours - why should them? Why someone not to make a city just for me? What's wrong with normal buildings, houses, villages...existing ones? Why to make new ones? We don't have that much space.

doomjedi wrote:How blind politically you need to be to really think those lands will not be returned to Palestinian - or thinking cheap housing are cheap for no reason? IMO they were far from naiive...

It is not necessary to forget that in 1948 and 1967 Israeli army has managed to win. Number of technics and the soldier who helped it an individual question. The victory is a victory.
I wanted to tell that two victories:
- have generated war-«children»
- in consciousness of people could there will be a thought (desire) «to go further»
Let's add here effect of the Earth Promised
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It would be desirable to advise you to see a film «The unforgiven» (1960, Director - John Huston).
The psychology of settlers is perfectly shown

doomjedi wrote:Already having orthodox fanatics having cities of their own...arabs.... - we can't allow any more separation...if a person is not exposed to different views, people....they become more and more fanatic, extreme, closed....a sect..

Has a little changed the opinion - Therefore I will tell probably would be an error to give "separate cities" now. The first wave of settlers (Gaza) won't understand. But if the first resettlement has caused disputes, that future moving of people hardly will pass problems easier. The obvious answer arises - from the very beginning it was not necessary to start up civil civil guardsmen on occupied territories.

Akuul wrote:
- have generated war-«children»

What are "war children"?

The obvious answer arises - from the very beginning it was not necessary to start up civil civil guardsmen on occupied territories.

That's me whole point.
But wishful thinking (and fear) here was stronger than respect to internatioanal law.

To their defence - I have to say that those people truly believed they are not occupiers - but are re-claiming their land (and the fact is - they did live there thousands of years ago, as written in the Bible and our generation-to-generation legacy), land promiced and given them by God...
Also we have to note we have some VERY HOLY jewish places there...in Hebron and not only...graves of our Biblical forfathers.... places described in the Bible - with pivotal and important points of biblical jewish' history...
This is something that is really hard to give up...or accepting as belonging to someone else....This is something to respect.
They felt they are returning to THEIR land.
Not to mention that jews/Israel accepted even 1948 borders...not to mention 1967 borders...and never started a war first or claimed their land... Arabs/Paleastinians were to start wars against us, not accepting at first 1948 borders (wanting ALL of the land) - and later 1967 borders - each time - starting wars against Israel to destroy her...
And in such a war - they lost and also lost some land...they more than deserved it - for not accepting jewish state - and war-initianting.
...still, this is illegal under international law to put civilian settlers in occupied terrirories...and protecting them with tons of limitations, security measures, road block, army raids....that makes Palestinian life - very uncomfortable - and without dignity.

But land was more important to them than logic, humanity, human rights...- and this is very Un-Holy appoach - at least to me.

I went to Purdue University in Indiana. Purdue had about the third largest number of international students in America. I went to school with Christians, Muslims, Jews, Zoroastrians, Hindus, followers of other religions, Israelis, Palestinians, Jordanians, Iraqis, Iranians, Afghanistanis, Indians, Pakistanis, and other nationalities. Thank you for discussing about Israel, Palestine, and Russia. I learned some things.

I’m having some personal problems now. Until June, I will be posting on The Wolf 3D Haven less often, updating wolfensteingoodies.com less often, and not working on mod plans yet. I’m sorry.

doomjedi wrote:

Akuul wrote:
- have generated war-«children»

What are "war children"?

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To understand such realities of life it is possible

Hi Abdallah!

One of the best films about children soldiers - "Johnny Mad Dog" (2008)
Leading roles were executed by the former soldiers (participants of fighting events)
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..And if I filmed about settlers in Israel that it there would be a film with Western (Wild West) atmosphere.

Well...after what I've posted here so far - noone here will dare to claim I'm a pro-settler. I'm the farthest from being such as you can think of.

Yet, that settler pic you've posted - makes me to want to put things in proportions here as there is alot of distortions in putting that pic against the other pic like that, like they are equal.
First - let's say the claims I can agree with - fully or at least semi-fully.
1. Yes...occupation makes militarism a very visable thing about our society...respect for force, for letting force/fear decide for us...claim that arabs understand only force (the same they can fully claim about the jews)...military terms and games, over-respect and over-patriotism about army, soldiers, military power and legacy...

...but the same was about Russia and WWII legacy....I played guns since I was a little child in former USSR and read books about russian child mortirs of WWII - whose pics were in Russia posted in every place....schools its... Everyone knew who was Pavlik Morozov, Zoya Kosmedemyanskaya etc..... Even moreso - the same thing is about arab/palestinian society...for militarism, force, respect, pictures of terrorists, mortirs, shahids...streets are named after terrorists who killled civilians in acts of terror......... And they take it much more extreme...as jews respect life...and not shahids and suicides...and doesn't promice civilian murderers 70 virgins in heaven...

2. Yes, that pic is probably not fake. Yet - it's the first time I see such pic...we can clearly see it's settlers their...and this is not a part of reality of people here in Israel...I've been through local educational system, and so are my friends and such...and I can say it 100%.
Not only that (only) settlers are on that pic - I'm sure - this is a very rare and extreme thing even for settlers - and those are probably some of the more extreme ones - and far from being official, or sponsored by the state. And probably for defence, not attack - as they live in dangerous territory.

This cannot be compared to parallel/official/sponsored child-brainwash camps (and child TV programs) in Gaza by Hamas and Islamic Jihad...where masses of chiddren are tought weapons and how it's good to blow themselves up killing jews, any jews... Young children there want to die, want to heaven, want to be Shahids, write poems about and songs about dying....Are tought that jews are not humans and have horns....

The pics posted - are VERY VERY VERY common pic of Palestinians/palestinian children, on every demonstration - especially in Gaza under Hamas. It's part of the athmoshpere, ideologi, common conversation....

And "settlers pic" posted - is very rare, and I wonder if you'll find another one.

3. Yes - there are ALOT of parallels between extreme palestinians - and extreme jews, or to say - settlers. I can even say - settlers are jewish "extreme palestinians"
Both think all the land belongs to them by God, both are blinded by patriotism and fanatic interpretation of religion, both have no brains of themselves, both don't see the other race as human being with rights, both see only themselves, both are easy on the trigger and can become violent...settlers are less violent only because they have upper hand anyway, backed by the army...

But still - there is alot of difference between extreme palestinians and settlers...
If you think they are alike - you've probably never met extreme palestinian - nor extreme settler.

doomjedi wrote:I played guns since I was a little child in former USSR and read books about russian child mortirs of WWII - whose pics were in Russia posted in every place....schools its... Everyone knew who was Pavlik Morozov, Zoya Kosmedemyanskaya etc...

Pavlik Morozov, Zoya Kosmedemyanskaya?? It were official portraits on a wall
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If your parents were children after war.. that ask them.. in 1950 one of popular heroes were
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.. also were popular in many countries.
And still you can ask who such Raj Kapoor.
For 1960 you can ask about such names as Michele Mercier, Robert Hossein, Yul Brynner, Yves Montand, Luigina Lollobrigida, Gerard Philipe and many other things.
Or here the film hero 1967 — 70 (actor Gojko Mitic, Yugoslavia)
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.. And there was still such film hero - Miclovan. It already Romania. Actor Sergiu Nicolaescu.. I can list many actors and which characters really loved in the USSR. Has mentioned foreigners, but actors from the country used such sympathy.
Also it is few names from cinema. I still can continue names of musicians, writers, artists, poets.
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You know who it?
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..its popularity in the USSR was comparable with Vysotsky's popularity..
Therefore excuse. There are children which play war. Also there are children which see as their parents go with the weapon. And a photo which I have placed isn't criticism. It is the fact. A reality.

doomjedi wrote:Even moreso - the same thing is about arab/palestinian society...for militarism, force, respect, pictures of terrorists, mortirs, shahids...streets are named after terrorists who killled civilians in acts of terror... <....> Young children there want to die, want to heaven, want to be Shahids, write poems about and songs about dying... <....>..

Simple true - war is easy for beginning but hard to stop. It is much more difficult to stop war when war is favourable to politicians.

doomjedi wrote:And "settlers pic" posted - is very rare, and I wonder if you'll find another one.

I can find different photos in the Internet. For example I can find a photo of people dressed on all Judaic canons with an automatic rifle on a shoulder. I can look on those Russian-speaking blogs who lives abroad. What will it change?

doomjedi wrote:extreme palestinians - and extreme jews <....> Both think all the land belongs to them by God, both are blinded by patriotism and fanatic interp

Once again I will repeat - Events in Israel/Palestin have generated certain generation of people living in this country. And you can be far from borders or the weapon but to escape from it is impossible.

P.S. - You by the way served in army? Streets patrolled? Protected the block posts and so on?

Akuul wrote:
And still you can ask who such Raj Kapoor.

Sounds like StarWars Tatooine spaceport name, heh
"Let's fly a spaceship off Raj Kapoor"

You know who it?

Not a clue

It is the fact. A reality.

Define "reality". Trying to depict a "reality" based on a few photos - it's like telling all Egypt is full of pyramids - just from a few Giza photos. Photos are chosen by people who have unobjective views... filtered...posted in unobjective matter...sometimes even photoshopped. This is not a REALITY. Images are used by both sides an a propaganda matter. You don't know the context of the pic...what happened a moment before this pic...a moment after it....
For everything - I can find a pic. If I'd want to depict USA as happy healthy and green state - I can find a pic. If I want to depict USA as agressive, overweight and racial - I can find a pic too.... Reality is not defined by set of pics.

I live in this reality...at least from the israeli side. So don't tell me what my "reality" is.

Simple true - war is easy for beginning but hard to stop. It is much more difficult to stop war when war is favourable to politicians.

Yes. I agree.
But none of Israeli politics wants or can gain anything - from war....death...destruction...sorrow....They can only lose.
Yes - many of them can gain political treasure from LACK OF PEACE AGREEMENT. Yes. This is true. This stands on our way.
But not from WAR. Not from violence. Just from lack of peace agreement....just from freezing the situation the way it is - unclear borders etc....

From the other side - we see clear gain from politicians for violence...as they have life quality much lower than in Israel...people are not happy...(unlike in Israel) - so a lot of potential anger on people...so Palestinian politicians prefer to define external enemy to let this mass anger spill over OUTSIDE....and not inside - towards them, their corruption , their spending "food and life quality" money on terror, weapons..........

See what happens in Syria today... open the news.... Basshar suffers from anger of people towards him and his opressing regime...so they try to make people to come and confront Israel and it's borders to take attention from their internal problems and uprising....

For example I can find a photo of people dressed on all Judaic canons with an automatic rifle on a shoulder.

What is Judaic canon? Orthodox jews don't have weapons... and others have only kippa and tzitzit.
But what does it mean? They live inside very hostile palestinian population...they need self defence - otherwise they will be massacred.

Once again I will repeat - Events in Israel/Palestin have generated certain generation of people living in this country.

Agree

And you can be far from borders or the weapon but to escape from it is impossible.

I agree and never claimed otherwise.

P.S. - You by the way served in army?

Yes

Streets patrolled?

No

Protected the block posts and so on?

No. BUT we - unlike the other side - have free press, that tells us about all the situation from all the sides - both positive and negative. Due to that - I KNOW hat happens their...pleasant things and very disturbing things....

doomjedi wrote:Sounds like StarWars Tatooine spaceport name, heh
"Let's fly a spaceship off Raj Kapoor"

I too like film "StarWars"..

Though I the supporter of an alternative explanation of the saga (6 episodes). It seems to me Sith bore prosperity for a galaxy. Jedi's it is chaos and anarchy. And if to be limited to films that Sith have won a victory (at least). As the maximum the winner became Darth Vader (who will bring balance to the Force)
.
And here Raj Kapoor he is the actor, the director from India. Its most well-known film "Awaara" (1951)

doomjedi wrote:Not a ...

You wanted to find itself? I so would tell... About this person even in Russia have started to forget
.
Arcady Severnyj (1939 - 1980) The singer of songs of modern city folklore, romances and stylizations. Songs wrote down with different collectives. For example group "Brothers Pearl". All records have been made is underground. The career covers the period 1963 - 1980..
.
(Song with which its concerts often began)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3iiN9OYldto
.
"Years rush"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKyyEqKChXY
.
"7:40"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzljyVI96FU
.
"Sweet berry"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9vcsKP9jrQ
.
By the way. After war and later the thieves' romanticism was popular. Many people listened to the Jazz, Rock'n'Roll.. And together with it the quantity of records of a thieves' song increased. For example a classical thieves' song performed by Arcady Severnogo in 1972
.
(In the beginning a small monologue. The song begins on 1 minute)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdTkOUDJQcY
.
This song one of the most known and simultaneously one of the most original street ballads. In different variants existed since 1920th years. Has received popularity in Leonid Utyosova's variant in 1930th. Itself Utyosov sang a song on "the Odessa" variant with appreciable Ukrainian accent.
In general it is possible to tell that beginning (approximately) since 1960 in the USSR communistic ideology has ceased to be ubiquitous. That to a clod was interesting could get different books and music. The choice was certainly modest. But. Now too not all can be bought freely. A difference in that that in the USSR conditions were dictated by interdictions and now commercial expediency.

doomjedi wrote:But none of Israeli politics wants or can gain anything — from war....death...destruction...sorrow.. <...> Palestinian politicians prefer to define external enemy to let this mass anger spill over OUTSIDE

"Harakat al-Muqawama al-Islamiya" and "Harakat al-Tahrir al-Watani al-Filastini" it is difficult to name allies.. enmity, disputes. There Can be it only outer side but.. more similar on race for power.
And in general it was interesting to esteem the Internet.
Didn't know that there is judaic religious community "Neturei Karta" which oppose state Israel creations

doomjedi wrote:..So don't tell me what my "reality" is...

I didn't want to impose you something. I simply wanted to tell that this photo is the fact. It was? Yes was. And I think that if settlers in occupied territories conduct such lessons of anything terrible in it aren't present.

doomjedi wrote:What is Judaic canon? Orthodox jews don't have weapons... and others have only kippa and tzitzit.
But what does it mean? They live inside very hostile palestinian population...they need self defence - otherwise they will be massacred...

I will agree that the word a canon was an unsuccessful word. It were people the dressed in black jackets, black hats, white shirts, beards and so on. Together with it I don't deny the right to self-defense.
We take history of the Wild West. All perfectly know that there occurred. But condemn those settlers I can not. Settlers have been compelled to defend. And by and large these people became hostages of the new earths. By the way many farms of settlers then have strongly suffered. It has occurred when have started to lay the railways. There were cases when people forced to sell the land below its cost. However the epoch of a competition of small and large ranches (cattle stages) too has broken many destinies.
Such case was still remembered. To one of tribes of Indians have suggested to change a place. The leader has refused. Persuaded long. Partly threats, partly its money possible to persuade. When it has arrived on a new place it has appeared that other tribes have occupied the best territories. The newcomer there was an unenviable site. The offended leader has lifted revolt.
And if to consider destinies of known gunfighter's. For example Wyatt Earp and only one case from his life "Gunfight at the O.K. Corral"

doomjedi wrote:..we - unlike the other side - have free press..

You trust in a free press? Even paparazzi depend on money, from the desires to be the first. For example what estimation is given by the Israeli mass media to that that occurs in Libya? What percent of those who condemns intervention of forces of the NATO?

Akuul wrote:
Though I the supporter of an alternative explanation of the saga (6 episodes). It seems to me Sith bore prosperity for a galaxy. Jedi's it is chaos and anarchy. And if to be limited to films that Sith have won a victory (at least). As the maximum the winner became Darth Vader (who will bring balance to the Force)

Interesting interpretation I can't say I agree - but it's a bit complicated

I will agree that the word a canon was an unsuccessful word. It were people the dressed in black jackets, black hats, white shirts, beards and so on. Together with it I don't deny the right to self-defense.

This is indeed complicated. I don't want to refer to a particular pic or whatever. I just know the situation. In general - violence is not a preferred way of settlers to act out. They make new settlements - and army need to protect those new settlements from "not pleased with the situation" arabs...so Settlers themselves barely have to use any weapons by themselves - as the army does the job for them. Yes, settlers (not "black" orthodox) use weapons against palestinians (mostly not to shoot arabs - but to scare them away in over-land fights and conflicts). As settlers are usually outnumbered in such situations (especially in lone settlements) - sometimes it's a pure self-defence.

You trust in a free press?

I know limitation of free press...and even democracy. That doesn't mean that we don't get an objective picture overall...especially as we live in democratic state that teaches people to think for themselves ,doesn't limit knowledge, exposes you to different views and opinions, teaches you to filter things and to know the facts........

For example what estimation is given by the Israeli mass media to that that occurs in Libya?

Estimation? what do you mean?
Yes, one shot/dead in some countries (western or Israel) - worth much more media-buzz that 1000 kills in Lybia or Africa or whatever.... Israel suffers much of that - but this is a "good suffering". 1000 kills in Lybia worth more than 1000 kills in Syria....But I'd prefer to be democratic and ethical country and suffer from world non-objective "paparazzi-press" - than to be a dictatorship that is far from a "care" of other countries. Like North Korea or China. This is a price of freedom, democracy, free press. Higher standards people expect of you. Noone expect nothing of China or North Korea. Or even Russia that can kill 1000 chechens and still not get a news title.

Still - I know when I'm limited, when the press is non-objective about some things....and it makes it more objective that in countries that people are filtered and press-manipulated - and doesn't know it...can't discuss it...can't ask questions, can't doubt...can't complain... There are alot of opinions here, different press - that balance each other out, telling me the weaknesses and lack of objective of the other media sources...so we get a right picture overall...non-democratic countries don't have that.

doomjedi wrote:Interesting interpretation Smile I can't say I agree - but it's a bit complicated Smile

I will try will short share some ideas. But in advance I will tell. The saga of "StarWars" doesn't have only true treatment. They can be different
.
By the way saw film "The Hidden Fortress"(1958)? This film tape about Samurais has "some" relation to "Star Wars"

doomjedi wrote:Or even Russia that can kill 1000 chechens and still not get a news title.

It was possible to count how many it is killed by the Chechen terrorists. It was possible to count how many it is killed when in Russia the Chechen terrorists took in hostages of women, children...

doomjedi wrote:But I'd prefer to be democratic and ethical country and suffer from world non-objective "paparazzi-press" - than to be a dictatorship that is far from a "care" of other countries.

Whether it is possible to name the state democratic if its government starts to bomb the country which is far from its borders? Therefore I wouldn't like to live in the USA or France or England. And is better these countries would carry out the economic help to Africa. Only there is a question - that to favourably western countries? The prospering Africa or Africa which is shattered by intercommunity war?
The answer can be seen on an example of Libya. It was the stable and rich country
.
What becomes Libya if "revolutionaries" carry out revolution by means of armies of other countries? What "democracy" want to bring to Libya?

Akuul wrote:
By the way saw film "The Hidden Fortress"(1958)

Nope...I do know it's a pard of "StarWars" origins...

Whether it is possible to name the state democratic if its government starts to bomb the country which is far from its borders?

How is it connected to "Democracy" term? Democracy means "people select who will lead them" - not "I'll never bomb other country"

The answer can be seen on an example of Libya. It was the stable and rich country

I can't check this data - so I'll reply in general.
Do you know to read russian? Then read this:

http://wikimoments.org/publ/ot_postojanstva_stabilnosti_k_dvizheniju/1-1-0-25

I can't say it more clear.

Nothing can be stable if people are not happy - and are aware of their unhappiness.... I prefer non-stable health to stable sickness.
Since when "stability" became a God? Prisoners have more stable living conditions....so what? Cemeteries are more stable than the city....People whose arms are cut - steal less...people without cars - have less car accidents....people with no money - are robbed much less.....so? I can make people give up on everything - and make a list of "happy numbers" ...like Stalin could do - .
....are they more HAPPY? Are they free? Don't they live in ingorance and fear? Opression?
We, free people - prefer to make mistakes....fall, mistaken...learn...have responsibility...to have money - even if we can be robbed ...free market - even if we can go bankrupt...have freedom - even if it'll make us responsible for our actions and choices...to "grow up"...and not live like ignorent children of father Gaddafi... who will give you bread - in a price of Freedom...of expression, opinion, voice, knowledge, choice....
This what makes us happy...and uplifts our quality of life....we are not farm animals who should be happy if they live stable and are given regular daily portions of food and bucket of water....
We enjoy mistakes....it's a price of freedom...unstability....which is much more stable that fake "stability" of opressors with tons of anger inside of people looking for a way out.... Democratic countries have stable unstability...health fluctuations... We are more stable and we are less strict....and more felixible - and so we can absorb much more "so called" unstability.... What can bring other regime down - will be a small wind in a democratic countries...where anger and depression are not blocked, depressed - waiting to unavoidable explosion - but anger and other opinions and voices are given role, importancy, voice...freedom of rights, speech and expression....Everyone is heard....

People are more than a list of "happy numbers"... even if you give people food...even health...even stability - but you take their freedom to express, create ,evolve, learn - you have a bunch of non-aware slaves, that will revolt the minute they'll get free facebook access and see what other countries have..

What does this magic word "stability' means? Stability means a swamp. Everything changes...evolves....always....water need to run....it's laws of civilizations, humanity...

So YES - I prefer unstable uprisers than "stable" Gaddafi regime. Freedom, democracy....For the long run....democracy always take time to build (and a bit of mess in the shirt run) - the earlier you'll start - the sooner you'll finish...
Young people are our future.

doomjedi wrote:Do you know to read russian? Then read this:
http://wikimoments.org/publ/ot_postojanstva_stabilnosti_k_dvizheniju/1-1-0-25

I can't deny positive sides of changes. But together with it I understand what not all changes are useful. War, revolutions, in my opinion can't benefit (to develop a society). Time when revolutionary shocks could serve any progress for a long time has ended. Has ended somewhere in the Middle Ages. The XXI-st century demands other policy.

doomjedi wrote:Nothing can be stable if people are not happy - and are aware of their unhappiness...

The fact - "revolutionaries" in Libya are powerless. They could make nothing. The conclusion - the all people of Libya doesn't support these terrorists. And who then is steady? That who asks the help from the NATO? Or that who continues to battle by own strength?

doomjedi wrote:We, free people - prefer to make mistakes....fall, mistaken...learn...have responsibility...to have money - even if we can be robbed ...free market - even if we can go bankrupt...have freedom - even if it'll make us responsible for our actions and choices

If we tell about freedom that who has granted the right to dictate a condition to the lawful government of Libya? Or you speak about that that "we free so that are free to bomb other country"?
It not seems to you that Europe and the USA remind Communistic dictatorship more and more?


P.S. There is a good rule - my freedom comes to an end there where freedom of other person begins!

Akuul wrote:
I can't deny positive sides of changes. But together with it I understand what not all changes are useful. War, revolutions, in my opinion can't benefit (to develop a society). Time when revolutionary shocks could serve any progress for a long time has ended. Has ended somewhere in the Middle Ages. The XXI-st century demands other policy.

Well, the revolutions themselves become now different....it's not Middle Ages (unlike what you try to say)...Now revolutions are much less violent...involve much younger people ...revolutionary ways of mass communication...and are won by press, and world legimitization.

Yes, revolutions tend to potentially replace one dictator with another (though any new such dictator will now forever know he has limits to his dictatorship - and his chair is not endless....this concept is revolutionary and new to arab/muslim world - where revoltuinos could never change a dictator before - and in any case - will produce less powerful and more aware dictators - even in the worst-case scenario - Rules of the game in the arab world are now Forever changed...now - Facebook has more power than any dictator...)...as true changes are slow. Regimes that evolve and introduce constant small changes to allow more prosperity and freedom - are never in danger of such revolution. When a regime blocks any changes - and instead invents even more "Iran-type" strict laws - revolt is the only way to go.
Yes, "Heaven" is not created immidiately after a revolution. But the Dare to dream, the believe they can change....that Woodstock-type feeling of young people that they HAVE power, and CAN change - will never go away and will never be forgotten...by leaders and by arab people.
Sure - harsh reality brings back some of the hope and promices of such revolutions...but the impact of change - is permanent...once you tasted freedom and power - you can never forget it...can never go back...to believing you are powerless as a people.
The sooner you start the change - even a small one - the sooner you'll build up your Heaven.

This revolution WAS a small changes - added up to a big revolt...for this revolt to win - you need to change minds and level of consciness of so many people... win heart after heart.... so the change - was a reflection of Drastic change as accomulation of small and permanent changes of people in the arab world... It was happening for long tike before the revolt...very gradually. It's not a group of people suddenly creating mind manipulation of people. It's the outside world changing...and no walls of no leader can stop it. Changes are unstoppable.

doomjedi wrote:Nothing can be stable if people are not happy - and are aware of their unhappiness...

The fact - "revolutionaries" in Libya are powerless. They could make nothing. The conclusion - the all people of Libya doesn't support these terrorists.

I do not agree. And they are not terrorists.

If we tell about freedom that who has granted the right to dictate a condition to the lawful government of Libya?

There is nothing lawful about it. And we do not dictate nothing - we just protect basic human laws and rights.

Or you speak about that that "we free so that are free to bomb other country"?

It was a democratic decision after long discussions of countries - who feel their responsibility to what is happening in the world.
Yes, as Humans - we are responsible for other humans. We cannot let them to be massacred - just because they live in that peice of land or another - that country or another. When they are born on Earth - just by being human - they have a right for food, freedom, life, dignity, privacy........ That's who we are. There are basic human rights that apply to all humans - in whatever place they are - even on the Moon, or on Mars.

P.S. There is a good rule - my freedom comes to an end there where freedom of other person begins!

It's a nice sentence. But you say it in a wrong context. It's so obvious that I feel to lazy to explain it to you.

doomjedi wrote:..we just protect basic human laws and rights..

It helping revolution against legitimate authority?

doomjedi wrote:..they <"revolutionaries" in Libya> are not terrorists.. ..we are responsible for other humans. We cannot let them to be massacred..

"A former leader of an al Qaeda linked group in Libya claims that there are around 1000 fundamentalist Islamic fighters in the country that have joined the uprising against Col. Moammar Gaddafi’s forces, a number that jives with intelligence reports and independent estimates. Yet still the allied NATO forces are considering arming the rebels.
Former jihadist Noman Benotman, who renounced his al Qaeda affiliation in 2000, said in an interview that he estimates 1,000 jihadists are in Libya, reports the Washington Times.
Referring to the fighters as “freelance jihadists”, Benotman said that the men were part of a North African terror cell known as Al Qaeda in the Islamic Mahgreb (AQIM).
Benotman told the Times that the fighters had attempted but so far failed to co-opt the Gaddafi government.
He also noted that the fighters have not labeled themselves as leaders of the uprising, yet have rather infiltrated the Libyan opposition so as not to appear to be “undermining” the Libyan people.
Benotman acknowledged that the jihadists were “afraid” to be seen imposing their wish to establish an Islamic republic in Libya, noting that the interim council leading Libya’s opposition is seeking democratic elections.
Yesterday in testimony on Capitol Hill, NATO’s Supreme Allied Commander, Admiral James Stavridis, acknowledged the presence of such fundamentalists amongst Libyan rebel groups"
.
(c) http://www.prisonplanet.com/former-libyan-al-qaeda-leader-says-there-are-1000-jihadists-amongst-rebels.html
.
By the way even the western mass media marked that insurgents traded in the weapon which has been stolen in army warehouses. Any part of the weapon it is sold to Palestin

doomjedi wrote: -It's a nice sentence. But you say it in a wrong context. It's so obvious that I feel to lazy to explain it to you.

Replace a word "my" with a word "state" or "country" - Freedom of any country comes to an end there where freedom of other country begins.

Akuul wrote:Freedom of any country comes to an end there where freedom of other country begins.

I don't know about that, fella. It kind of works here in Europe.

Thomas wrote:

Akuul wrote:Freedom of any country comes to an end there where freedom of other country begins.

I don't know about that, fella. It kind of works here in Europe.

..other countries defective (have no rights)
.

.
...
Here’s what those 2,000 Tribal Leaders had to say about British aggression, in a statement approved unanimously on June 3. Sheikh Ali, head of the Tribal Leaders, delivered it to Joanna Moriarty and other members of the global fact finding mission:
“The Libyan people have the right to govern themselves. Constant attacks from the skies, at all hours of the day have completely disrupted the lives of the families of Libya. There has never been any fighting in Tripoli, yet we are bombed every day. We are civilians and we are being killed by the British and NATO. Civilians are people without guns, yet the British and NATO protect only the armed crusaders from the East by acting as their attack army. We have read the UN resolutions and there is no mention of bombing innocent civilians. There is no mention of assassinating the legitimate authorities in all of Libya.”
“The Libyan People have the right to select their own leaders. We have suffered occupation by foreign countries for thousands of years. Only in the last 41 years have we Libyans enjoyed property ownership. Only in the last 41 years have we seen our country develop. Only in the last 41 years have we seen all of the Libyans enjoy a better life, and know that our children will have a better life then we have had. But now with the British and NATO bombings of our country, we see the destruction of our new and developed infrastructure.”
“We leaders see the destruction of our culture. We leaders see tears in the eyes of our children because of the constant fear from the “rain of terror” in the skies of Libya from the British and NATO bombings. Our old people suffer from heart problems, increased diabetes and loss of vigor. Our young mothers are losing their babies every day because of the stress of the British and NATO bombings. These lost babies are the future of Libya. They can never be replaced. Our armies have been destroyed by the British and NATO bombings. We cannot defend ourselves from attacks from anyone.”
“As Tribal Leaders of Libya, we must ask why have the British and NATO decided to wage this war against the Libyan people? There are a small percentage of dissidents in the east of Libya that started an armed insurrection against our legitimate authority. Every country has the right to defend itself against armed insurrection. So why cannot Libya defend itself?”
“The Tribal Leaders of Libya demand that all acts of aggression, by the British and NATO, against the Libyan People stop immediately. June 3, 2011″
.
(c) http://www.veteranstoday.com/2011/06/07/going-rogue-natos-war-crimes-in-libya/

Akuul wrote:
It helping revolution against legitimate authority?

Noone intended to help the revolution. The initial intention was to protect people who try to voice "other" opinions against that authority - from keep being murdered and raped in a massive character but a crazy lunatic.
It was a humanitarian disaster. And Kaddafi is the only one to blame...that crazy murdering lunatic.

After Kaddafi showed he'll prefer to kill all his people than to let them show their voice - yes, it became "helping the revolution.

"A former leader of an al Qaeda linked group in Libya claims that there are around 1000 fundamentalist Islamic fighters

I don't mind them helping "us" From what I know about what's happening there - times have changed. If they'll try to be Kaddafi 2 - they'll end up pretty fast like previous lunatic I don't buy that Kaddafi "let me mass kill my people, otherwise you'll be sorry that Al Kaeda took my place, it'll be much worse".

El Kaeda didn't start the revolt... Lybia will belong to Lybian people, who are tired of violent lunatics. If Fundamentalists think they have some real interests they can gain in Lybia - they are mistaken...

doomjedi wrote:The initial intention was to protect people who try to voice "other" opinions against that authority

From what it is a time pogroms and robberies became way to express the opinion? There are certificates of Russian working in Libya under the contract. They perfectly saw that occurred and as these "revolutionaries" operated
.
Lyudmila and Andrey — a married couple. Andrey — the engineer, has left to Europe. Lyudmila — the teacher, and it has agreed to tell about the latest developments which have shaken Libya and the world.
Lyudmila, the eyewitness of events in Libya tells: — holiday on February, 18th came to an end, and we have arrived a flight in Bengasi. Nothing gave occasions to anxiety. In a city there were quite usual conditions. In the morning, 19th when it was necessary to come to work... SUDDENLY disorders (very unexpectedly) have begun — youth groups (now their official propagation names insurgents) were unsteady around the city and smashed all on the way. So, the city park created more recently by foreigners by request of the government of the country for these Libyans has been before our eyes destroyed.
Teenagers (so-called fighters with dictatorship of Kaddafi) have cut down and have burned trees in park, have turned out benches, have spoiled everything that could. Then pogroms were threw on houses where there live foreign workers. Apartments were plundered and set fire. Foreign workers (from the countries of Asia and Africa) in yellow helmets which they carry as distinctive signs, became object for attacks from the young men armed with bludgeons. Some months prior to disorders of Kaddafi has made in Bengasi the most beautiful quay, a lot of habitation, modern park with lawns, trees, palm trees and fountains is besides constructed — live people, rejoice. No, all is necessary as to savages to crush! So, the quay has been recently simply destroyed. Now smash the houses
.
(с) http://www.newsland.ru/news/detail/id/659142/cat/48/
.
A bit earlier we spoke about the right to self-defense. And so the lawful government of Libya has used this right. And what would be if in Tel Avive the crowd of young men has begun revolt with pogroms and shots?

doomjedi wrote:If Fundamentalists think they have some real interests they can gain in Lybia - they are mistaken...

Fundamentalists don't plan. They are really dug round in the North Africa thanks to export of revolutions from USA. Esteem on the Internet who has returned to that Egypt..
.
Sheikh Jusuf al-Karadaui, one of the most authoritative leader of Islamites, has returned from Qatar to Egypt. It has been sent by the Egyptian authorities in 1961. Sheikh Jusuf al-Karadaui is known for the sermons on hatred to Jews: repeatedly he named the Holocaust "divine punishment" and declared that "would like to die as the martyr during an attack on Jews"
.
(c)
http:// www.sem40.ru/index.php? newsid=215357
http:// www.sem40.ru/index.php? newsid=217558

Must say, it's a very interesting topic. Makes me think, though politics is complicated - every country has its own history and many people don't understand this. It's one reason why conflicts and arguments evolve. Maybe bigger countries like the US shouldn't intervene in matters that are hard to understand and to solve. It makes things worse - like in Afghanistan where Taliban was overthrown from power.

Valts wrote:...every country has its own history.

Versions (explanations) be valid can much. For example one of the reasons of the beginning of war in Libya...
.
The American bank Goldman Sachs loses 1.3 billion dollars which have been given by Libya. Losses since summer of 2008 till February of 2010 have made 98 percent (!) of actives. The capital was compressed to 25,1 million dollars. Libyans completely not passionlessly looked at how their money disappears. In 2009 scandal has burst. Relations between Tripoli and Goldman Sachs were heated to a limit, and the bank even had to employ protection that those could be on the lam from Libya for the managers.
In the summer of 2009 the Libyan fund in exchange for new investments at a rate of 3,7 billion dollars was offered to receive a 5-milliard package of voting actions Goldman Sachs. The transaction hasn't taken place, and something prompts: US authorities which hardly were delighted that the mode of Kaddafi can become the shareholder of one of the largest investment banks of a planet have opposed it. That was further, it is known: in Libya the revolution which has outgrown in civil war and NATO bombardments has burst. Foreign actives of Tripoli are arrested, and who will remember now how them the western investment bankers operated.
By the way, hasn't carried Kaddafi and with Frenchmen. The billion enclosed before crisis in papers Societe Generale has led to 72 percent losses. And then suddenly Paris became the supporter of the Libyan military campaign...
.
(с)
Short in Russian - http://www.itogi.ru/chto/2011/23/165844.html
In detail in English - http://downwithtyranny.blogspot.com/2011/06/making-war-in-libya-for-goldman-sachs.html

Valts wrote:..Maybe bigger countries like the US shouldn't intervene in matters that are hard to understand and to solve. It makes things worse - like in Afghanistan where Taliban was overthrown from power.

I won't be surprised if the USA have got used to build the foreign policy where necessarily there should be an external enemy. Probably for many long years oppositions from the USSR in the USA were generated structures which live at the expense of conflicts, wars and so on

A bit earlier we spoke about the right to self-defense. And so the lawful government of Libya has used this right. And what would be if in Tel Avive the crowd of young men has begun revolt with pogroms and shots?

I don't make my reality from un-confirmed "so-called reports" of some unknown to me couple...in a country like Russia that has deep interests in Lybia...The whole depiction is so unrealistic...also - noone tells what happened hour before - or hour later... taken out of context... people don't act this way unless they have a good reason to.

But anyway - In Tel Aviv - noone would "begun revolt with pogroms and shots" - because they are free to express their opinions in a peaceful way of protest....and they can vote in objective and democratic vote for their leader, parties, goverments... They feel someone is listening to them - and they can affect their reality and lifes through democratic ways. They don't have a lunatic govermenting them for 30-40 years of opression. Every collected anger will spill out eventually.

But if they did (assuming for a discussion sake it's a true and objective report) - they would be arrested or killed depends of the danger they present to the civilians and law-inforcement forces.

Fundamentalists don't plan. They are really dug round in the North Africa thanks to export of revolutions from USA. Esteem on the Internet who has returned to that Egypt..

They don't have a choice. They have to always be on a side that depicts "people's side" - as they get their legitimacy from the streets and think ahead to a day after Kaddafi is gone... but them helping the relolt won't help their cause - because it's not a revolt against particular leader - but ideology, way of goverment and opression, tortures - the same thing that Fundamentalists represent.

doomjedi wrote:

A bit earlier we spoke about the right to self-defense. And so the lawful government of Libya has used this right. And what would be if in Tel Avive the crowd of young men has begun revolt with pogroms and shots?

..if they did (assuming for a discussion sake it's a true and objective report) - they would be arrested or killed depends of the danger they present to the civilians and law-inforcement forces.

Precisely so the lawful government in Libya has started to arrive.

doomjedi wrote:They don't have a choice. They have to always be on a side that depicts "people's side"

..really ..the choice isn't present. On streets there was a crowd, and the leader is necessary to crowd. And those who have provoked crowd to demonstrations it understood?
As it seems to me ancient regimes of the North Africa served as a deterrent for distribution of Islamic fundamentalists. Destroying these modes or weakening their western countries prepare a place for leaders with more radical ideology. However perhaps it won't occur. But disorders, chaos can lasts long. In Iraq till now kill people. And for what armies of the USA there entered? To find which chemical weapon wasn't in this country?

Akuul wrote:
Precisely so the lawful government in Libya has started to arrive.

Again - assuming your facts are 100% objective - then indeed.

I just don't know any situation (in Israel or western world) that would cause/justify women to be raped, or that protesters would be shot from aimless helicopters and warplanes - nomatter how violent is a protest. This is massacre.

..really ..the choice isn't present

This is always a choice.

On streets there was a crowd, and the leader is necessary to crowd.

And those who have provoked crowd to demonstrations it understood?

You can't provoke that much people normally living in normal country - to start an uprising, run into bullets, fight overwelming and overarmed and overnumbered army of Kaddafi...despite massacre from helicopters and warplanes.

Every grain of idea needs a "prepared" land to grow such a protest. People opressed, unhappy - is a good ground for such... and it's logical. If you won't give them a leader - they'll create one themselves.
We in Israel have very talented leaders and lunatics (including Islamic fanatics) - very good speechmen - and you don't see a ground for such an internal uprising.

And for what armies of the USA there entered? To find which chemical weapon wasn't in this country?

I don't protect USA That was indeed stupid.

doomjedi wrote:..You can't provoke that much people normally living in normal country - to start an uprising … Every grain of idea needs a "prepared" land to grow such a protest..

..It can provoke and organize. Similar "revolutions of flowers" occurred in Ukraine, Kirghizia, Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan, Turkmenia. There are technologies characteristic for separately taken country, but there are general signs. One of variants - "revolution of flowers" this congestion protesting following the results of elections. The crowd renders rigid psychological pressure on the country leaders, compelling it to retire. In a violence ideal shouldn't be. But for example in Kirghizia "flowers (velvet) revolution" has outgrown in pogroms. In Libya is even worse - war has begun. The war reason in Libya, as it seems to me, - weakness of opposition. And whether there was this opposition??? Libyan "revolutionaries" are more similar the "armed groups" which quickly began to assist rockets and bombs because of abroad.

doomjedi wrote:..or that protesters would be shot from aimless helicopters and warplanes - nomatter how violent is a protest. This is massacre...

From the moment of the beginning of excitements in Libya this country was visited many by the western journalists. Journalists photographed only insurgents.
Where a photo of mass executions? Where 1000 victims? All it reminds fairy tales about "the chemical weapon in Iraq"
But journalists have made many photos of "revolutionaries". They very much like to pose. In these photos - there are also Russian automatic machines withdrawn on warehouses of the Libyan army... But so there is a weapon from Europe, China.. or from other countries..
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..Belgian FN FAL.. Looks as new of a box

If that is more exact in photo IMBEL LAR the Brazilian variant FN FAL. Brazil lets out till now these rifles. Still small parties this weapon lets out the USA
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"Insurgents".. One with Beretta M951. The second "revolutionary" threatens the peace person

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..new cartridges for NATO machine guns

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The Chinese machine gun. Too the new (from a box)...

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The "insurgent" in the American helmet and with the American pistol

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Box.. from the USA..

On a box - "cartridges .. for rifle M40 M40A1" (?)
US Marine Corps / Remington M40 & M40A1 (USA) (?)
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Or here such weapon.. FN FAL

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Here an expressive photo. In the foreground four "revolutionaries". Three are armed by rifles Brazilian (or the USA) manufactures.

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It is not forgotten - to sell the weapon to Libya it was forbidden.
In military warehouses of Kaddafi there could not be these arms.
Who after that will trust in "national revolution" to Libya?

On foreign resource (forum) has found many photos. Not still has had time to look. But I will quote © two photos (last).
Also I think to a theme «"revolution" in Libya» there is nothing to add more
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What does last pic show? Al-Kaeda islamic fundamentalists respecting american flag? Or Lybian fighters thanking USA for air assistance?

doomjedi wrote:What does last pic show? Al-Kaeda islamic fundamentalists respecting american flag? Or Lybian fighters thanking USA for air assistance?

Each signature concerns one photo.
On all a photo Libyan "revolutionaries".
What not clear in each signature for each photo?