Thomas' Wolfenstein 3D (Have you played it?)

Due to the fact that no one is voting in its poll, it leads me to believe possibly no one has played this set, so I've edited to add that option and simplify the rest.

All that hard work for nothing, huh...

Don't worry, I'll give it a go

Gee, thank you! Always nice to know there's between 0 and 1 people playing yer junk.

It seems like everyone else loved Time to Kill (not saying I won't as I haven't it played it yet either) yet wants to airhead your other word. Well except doomjedi, I think he said he played this (and liked it a lot), but he hasn't put any votes in. I don't know why no one wants to discuss any of your 2012 mods besides T2K; if you think that is disrespectful, I would in fact totally agree.

Think of it this way. You get:

* Eisenfaust Origins
* The ECWolf port
* Executor's whatever-the-name-is mod with fantastic screenshots and brand new features
* The fact that the community has shrunken to a third of its size in the 2002-05 heyday

And here you're offered:

* 60 maps, nothing new, just a bit of design

I think there's a reason people don't comment/play/give a damn about these releases. It's just that I find it so hard and tedious to make a mod with just a little more than this.

Well I even sent doomjedi a private message asking him to vote/comment in this thread, and even he won't do it. And I'm pretty sure he did play this and like it. Simple games are far from worthless just because of stuff like Eisenfaust Origins; on the contrary, I'd say they remind why Wolfenstein was good in the first place. The community naturally shrinks some as a game turns twice as old (at least when twice is 20 years vs. 10!) and I feel every good release is one more good reason for people to stay in the community.

Thomas is a great mapper. No doubt about it. I've played a good amount of his mods, but the ones I played the most were Nazi Operation and NovoWolf.

Did you mind Level 9 in NovoWolf? Actually that one's no big deal, more so Level 27 in Nazi Operation?

Otherwise his mods are indeed generally great though you should really play ATAW3D, Castle Assault, W.O.L.F., and Time to Kill. (Probably the top four you didn't mention, in fact add NovoWolf there and you pretty much have his top five)

I never really paid attention to the levels. Nothing ever seemed out of place.

Level 9 of NovoWolf is at most probably a minor personal preference (I don't think it's downright bad either), but Level 27 of Nazi Operation is like a really sore thumb.

Eh. It's been a while since I played them so I forgot what those levels look like.

The reason why level 9 of NovoWolf sucks is because I'd already made a level 9, a much better, more roomy maze with decent rooms, decoration and meaningful guard placement. Somehow that got lost and I had to think fast. Novo was strange. The bulk of it was made in mid-2007 (levels 1-14) with levels 15-21 being made out of boredom during the fall of 2008 - it was finally released in late 2009. So I've a hard time placing this mod in my conscience, though various people deem it as some of my best work. I'm glad it got finished though, unlike so many other projects (still released, nonetheless) that just fell through the floor.

Level 27 of Nazi Operation was more of a denial than an actual map. I think I tried to make a real clever map, real "spooky" in the same vein as Chemical Warfare's level 27. I did this with Project Wolfgeist too, level 27's all huge and weird but really, really sucks. When it comes to interesting "avant-garde" maps, Chris or Eric is your man.

Oh now I remember with that Level 9 blue maze. Well it still was good enough in my eyes because it always threw me off to where the exit was. I would remember which direction to get there, but any missing enemies or treasures would make me forget about the exit and I'd search for it again for minutes.

Chris obviously for avent-grande, but I don't think Eric really got the hook of it until 'This Spear'. SHS is already too hardcore for my liking and I believe his Super Haven Mapset levels (which he did 20 of the 60 IIRC) even more so. I still feel I should play the Super Haven sen though - Brian, ack, Thomas, and Wlhack all have work in there. Brian over a dozen levels, I think. ack has 9, Thomas has 6, and Wlhack only has 4 but he was such a great author with map designs and he even made the final level of the game (E6L9).

No, the real difficulty was only in SHS. My levels in Wolf3d mapset were somewhat challenging (with the boss levels very challenging) but not as hard as SHS. Before SHS my levels had less mutants in it and I believe no bosses except boss levels. I actually remember using pac-mans on the boss level, which actually made it more difficult to beat.

Not from what I see...(listing your levels only and no secret ones)

E1L1: Two Hans, two Gretel, one Pacman.
E1L2: Two Hans.
E1L4: No Pacman or bosses.
E1L7: 8 Pacman ghosts.
E1L8: 7 Hans/Gretel combined and 8 Pacman ghosts.
E2L3: No Pacman or bosses but you mapped this with Dr. Chainsaw.
E2L4: One Hans, one Gretel, 3 Pacman.
E2L6: No Pacman/bosses.
E2L7: One Hans and one Gretel both within a few rooms of the exit.

There isn't anything extreme after the second episode, but your levels are all extremely large, many do have rooms full of mutants, and E1L8 is legitimately insane.

WolfForever wrote:Not from what I see...(listing your levels only and no secret ones)

E1L1: Two Hans, two Gretel, one Pacman.
E1L2: Two Hans.
E1L4: No Pacman or bosses.
E1L7: 8 Pacman ghosts.
E1L8: 7 Hans/Gretel combined and 8 Pacman ghosts.
E2L3: No Pacman or bosses but you mapped this with Dr. Chainsaw.
E2L4: One Hans, one Gretel, 3 Pacman.
E2L6: No Pacman/bosses.
E2L7: One Hans and one Gretel both within a few rooms of the exit.

There isn't anything extreme after the second episode, but your levels are all extremely large, many do have rooms full of mutants, and E1L8 is legitimately insane.

Then I'm wrong, I forgot what I made in my OWN MAPS. Amazing, huh?

Amazing when you forget your own work. Try playing it again and I'll betcha you'll play it like it's someone else mod

I'd say give Eric some slack, it's been years since he made those levels and they were among his first.

Actually what I'm more wondering is if the levels by other authors in that game are worthwhile. I can easily skip a map if I want to. Schabbs, Thomas, ack, and Wlhack - those are some generally very good authors to potentially be missing but do they deliver their usual standards of mapping in their contributions here?

I honestly haven't played enough of their individual mods to give a final judgements. I do know Brian (Schabbs), Thomas, and WLHack make good maps. I haven't played any of ack's maps so I don't know.

I know for one thing that whatever I've contributed to, you can find the maps in "Odds and Ends" as well.

And looking at Eric's mapping and usage of bosses/Pacman ghosts I get to think I must be the most boring person in the world. I'm only really racy when I put a HITLER GHOST (giggles) in a secret area.

But if you have ghosts on 'straight' levels (aka levels that have end level stats) will you ever be able to get 100 % kill?!

By your standards Thomas, it's impossible to get 100% kill. However, one can always program the ghosts to be killed. Look what MCS did with the evil Pacman Ghosts in Spear Resurrection.

Thomas wrote:I know for one thing that whatever I've contributed to, you can find the maps in "Odds and Ends" as well.

And looking at Eric's mapping and usage of bosses/Pacman ghosts I get to think I must be the most boring person in the world. I'm only really racy when I put a HITLER GHOST (giggles) in a secret area.

But if you have ghosts on 'straight' levels (aka levels that have end level stats) will you ever be able to get 100 % kill?!

You have six levels in this.

By the way there are a few levels that are contributions to community sets (though not this one) that aren't in Odds and Ends:

1. Level 3 of the Team Aardowlf set (yet you did include Level 26)
2. Your maps in the Gex's Spear set from 2005
3. Episode 2 and E6L1 of The Wolfenstein 3D Community Map Pack (2007)
4. Level 15 of BMSE10YR.

However for Super Haven Schabbs made like 15 levels and I always love his designs, ack made 9, and Wlhack made 4. Are the levels by these authors in this set up to their usual respective standards?

I can't say for sure, Forever. The Super Haven Mapset is a pure old school Wolf3d mod. I don't know their individual self-standards for old-school maps.

WolfForever wrote: Are the levels by these authors in this set up to their usual respective standards?

Of course.

Of course? That's all you're gonna say? C'mon Wizzie! LOL!

WolfForever wrote:
By the way there are a few levels that are contributions to community sets (though not this one) that aren't in Odds and Ends:

1. Level 3 of the Team Aardowlf set (yet you did include Level 26)
2. Your maps in the Gex's Spear set from 2005
3. Episode 2 and E6L1 of The Wolfenstein 3D Community Map Pack (2007)
4. Level 15 of BMSE10YR.

1. This was in "The Bitter End" - no reason to include it in O&E
2. This was scattered across Secrets of Offenbach and/or Nazi Operation - no reason to include it in O&E
3. This was scattered across Quest for the General and/or Castle Assault - no reason to include it in O&E
4. This was made AFTER Odds & Ends came out. Simple logic

The reason why I made Odds & Ends was simply because I wanted my maps all in one place or all my work being released under my own name. Now, it is. The only thing I did not include (and you did not write this either) was my "Facing Hell" map from MotM Oct. 2007 because it had too much coding that (apparently) didn't work in the released map. When I built it, it worked, but someone changed something in the EXE so that when it was released, it was shit. Took a lot of flak for it too as it was level 1 (I think?) in the set.

I also sent one map to BrotherTank in late 2010 which I've repeatedly asked for again, I understand he's tired of me asking as this is the 3rd time or something I do that. My computer crashes... That was to be included in O&E but he still have not responded. Maybe he no longer has it. I don't care. For all I know, I've made my fair share of maps here and it's been so long since I've actually wanted to do something, had fun with something. When I did Time to Kill and the first 2 episodes for my map set I had a blast. That's one year ago. Haven't felt any strong desire to make maps since then, so that's why my releases have been fairly small and shitty and included scrapped old maps for the magnificent son of a bitch that was to be Wolf Overkill.

Who knows, we all get inspiration and then lose it. It's normal, and it comes in cycles. Just take some time off if you need and it should work like magic. There's been many times in my life in which I've stopped playing Wolfenstein entirely, and not for any one good reason. Yet I always come back, someday and somehow. That's the hallmark of a good game.

And re the levels not in O&E I understand now.

One thing though: where did E3-E6 of your mapset and the rest of Iron Dream that wasn't maps that had no other place come from?

I believe those maps are scrapped ones from his killed off Overkill mod.

WolfForever wrote:One thing though: where did E3-E6 of your mapset and the rest of Iron Dream that wasn't maps that had no other place come from?

Episodes 3-6 were brand new, made in Spring/Summer 2012. The rest of the Iron Dream (levels 10 and up) came from 2009 Overkill maps, as it was the only one I had left. I made well over one hundred maps in 2010/2011 but they're all gone............. Level 9 in Iron Dream came from a Spear map set that I didn't wanna make anyway.

Oh yeah. I remember that infamous computer crash of yours Thomas. I wasn't around back then, but I kept tabs at DHW and kept tabs at the Overkill thread.

The crash was faking it. I deleted it all by myself, thinking it was a good idea to clear my head back then, come back with fresh ideas. It was a bit stupid in hindsight, but I don't think it'd ever gotten finished anyway.

I don't think you should judge on what could have been. Who knows what could've happened if you didn't delete those maps.

WolferCooker wrote:Of course? That's all you're gonna say? C'mon Wizzie! LOL!

Well, they are. Not much to say. Only one way to find out: play the game!

Well it is theoretically possible that a good author can make a bad level if they try, right?

I mean, how hard would it be for them to make one huge room, put the player start somewhere, put the elevators somewhere, and fill it with more enemies than the player could possibly handle to boot? Probably no harder that it would be for me to do that. I mean, there's a different between if it's possible and if they'd ever actually do it, just technically speaking.

My standards of bad levels are ones Toti made in Spear of Toti and Toti's revenge. Even I can make better maps than that. Believe me, I tried mapping already.

WolfForever wrote:Well it is theoretically possible that a good author can make a bad level if they try, right?

I mean, how hard would it be for them to make one huge room, put the player start somewhere, put the elevators somewhere, and fill it with more enemies than the player could possibly handle to boot? Probably no harder that it would be for me to do that. I mean, there's a different between if it's possible and if they'd ever actually do it, just technically speaking.

...But it makes no difference in the end, especially about the quality of the maps they did make.

@WolferCooker I recall how bad Toti's levels are, especially prior to his last release in 2011 (which even that was mediocre at best).

On the other hand, Dean has reviewed some other mods with appallingly bad levels. Two I recall are 'Day of the Chaingun' by Ross Williams and 'The Grail of Eternal Life' by (I forget the author, sorry). There are others I know of too, though. 'Shankenstein' has sixty of them! And if I recall, everything in 'Gravestein 3000' is awful except for the last episode which was done by Brian.

I wonder: what is the worst 60-level (or near 60-level) Wolfenstein 3D set in existence where:
1. ALL the levels are of the same poor standard (disqualifies 'Gravestein 3000');
2. All levels are original, hand-created maps (not Creator and not borrowed from another set); and
3. At least 9/10 levels are replaced on all six episodes. (Generally, either everything except the boss OR secret level.)

I remember playing a mod where that needed the original Wolf EXE to play. I clearly remember E1L1 was heavily modified after the prison part. It was too mazy and full of green barrels. I never went past that level.

Could it have been a shareware set, or are you certain it was a registered one? That might help me hunt it down.

WolferCooker wrote:I remember playing a mod where that needed the original Wolf EXE to play. I clearly remember E1L1 was heavily modified after the prison part. It was too mazy and full of green barrels. I never went past that level.

Reminds me of my very first level... mine had multiple bosses though.

Forever, I think it was a shareware set. Old-school as well. I know there wasn't any code changes nor texture changes.

Wizzie. Your 'This Spear' mod had tons of bosses at the last level. Hundreds of Ubermutants, Barnacle Wilhelms, and Trans Grosses. And only 1 Death Knight because of the last level before you get the Spear.

WolferCooker wrote:Forever, I think it was a shareware set. Old-school as well. I know there wasn't any code changes nor texture changes.

Wizzie. Your 'This Spear' mod had tons of bosses at the last level. Hundreds of Ubermutants, Barnacle Wilhelms, and Trans Grosses. And only 1 Death Knight because of the last level before you get the Spear.

You're confusing it with SHS. SHS had the bosses, This Spear has 1 boss on boss levels (and secret levels), and none anywhere else.

Oh... my bad. Sorry. It's been years.

WolferCooker wrote:Oh... my bad. Sorry. It's been years.

This Spear was the direct consequence of the negative opninions of the bosses/mutants ingame and I spent extra time to fix those issues. Have you ever finished SHS? Your new challenge!

I actually liked This Spear quite a lot. Reminded me of a somewhat more hardcore (but still sane) ack, to be honest. I'm sad there was never 'That Wolf3D'.

SHS I got fed up with midway through and stopped playing.

I'm just glad more good mods are on the way. Especially from Raycast.

I think the worst sets out there are those with Creator maps. At least with stuff such as Shankenstein and most of the sets in the Super Upgrades pack (that the name?) you know people have tried to make something on their own, whether it's good or bad or just experimenting. Creator maps is just plain, preprogrammed shit.

And while I think bosses on plain levels can be fun and even a bit challenging (I'm thinking Chemical Warfare here) there still is a limit.