Forced Male Circumcision

Here's what I wrote regarding the topic of FORCED MALE CIRCUMCISION:

Is it just me, or is forced circumcision really just child abuse? Why do you have to mutilate what god gave you? If your son wants circumcision when they're 18, fuck, they can go pay for their OWN circumcision and have it done on THEIR time. But choosing for a baby whether to cut off sensitive tissue should be illegal. But NO. We're going to cut a chunk of skin off of your penis because we can and its what your parents did to you. No painkillers given to the baby; it's not safe to drug a newborn. SO YOU CUT IT AND CLIP IT OFF AND YANK IT OFF WHILE THE BABY IS BLEEDING OUT THE GODDAMN PENIS.


"Circumcision. If I'm talking about female circumcision in the Western world, I'll rightly be met with gasps of horror. How could people think about cutting off the clitoris and labia of a healthy girl? If I'm talking about male circumcision, people react far more calmly, as if they're being offered full milk or half and half, as if the difference were purely cosmetic. "For some reason if you clip off a female's clitoris, it's quite illegal, but if you clip off the skin of a guy's penis, it's pretty damned acceptable.

No, a baby won't rememer isn't an excuse. Because first, they do, for quite a while. This has been documented. The penis is sensitive. If you rip stuff off without painkillers, it will be traumatic. They get nightmares. Also, 'they won't remember' isn't an arguement. How about you cut a baby with knives, slap and kick them, because they won't remember? I'd like to think society has moved past this and can do common sense.Seriously now. Guys, how would you feel if I yank **** out of your penis? I know I'd be scared shitless.

If having a foreskin increases the chance of UTI (Mind you, males already have a very low chance vs females, and for males it really only occurs when the guy doesn't clean himself for a century), and we're all about preventing every FUCKING little thing, let's just do gastric bypass to every man, woman, and child to prevent heart problems!


While it IS legal to harm your future child's penis and potential sexual enjoyment, it is not MORALLY acceptable to do so. Don't chuck in your religion bullshit, either. Just because Jews do it doesn't make it ok. You know what? Criminals have been killing people for a long time. That doesn't make killing ok. You know that the Jew culture also has people sucking blood from the male's penis, right? You can believe whatever you want; but once you start inflicting physical harm in the name of your religion, I draw the line there. And sucking blood from a penis is just disgusting. Did I just critisize their culture? You betcha'. Before you gasp in shock, you know what I'm saying makes sense. So don't judge me or label me. I'm not Hitler the 5th.

Circumcision means less work cleaning your body? WHAT? Bro. How about I cut off your head so you don't have to wash your hair? How about I cut off your boobs so there's less surface area to clean? If I can clean the rest of my body, I'm quite capable of cleaning foreskin, thank you very much.

Who even suggested circumcision? A gazillion years ago. But who came up with the idea that, oh, we're going to lump off part of the nerve endings of the penis and be all fucking righteous about it? How can you look yourself in the mirror each morning and agree with FORCED REMOVAL of BODY PARTS from a SEXUAL AREA on a HELPLESS BABY???


I'd like to stress the fact that once you do circumcision, you can't really un-do it. If you don't do it, you can do it whenever you feel like. This time with anesthesia, preferably.

By the way, cirumcision leaves ugly scars. I'd be slightly self concious in the bedroom if my penis has a gigantic brown V mark from being sliced up.

So I guess my question here is, why is this legal? Why is it not hailed as immoral? And, if YOU have a male baby, will you choose circumcision for your son?


Jesus facepalm.

Anybody have any thoughts or opinions on this issue either way? If you have a male child, would you do circumcision on them?

This is why I can't get hold of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Orthodox jews = Islamists. Same sh!t. End of.

Dark_wizzie wrote:Anybody have any thoughts or opinions on this issue either way?

As a jew, living in Israel, who had it at done to him at age of 12...can't afford not to have one
You indeed seem to have alot of accurate and detailed info on the issue, and your opinion is one to respect.
Though even you don't know all of the details that I know...The operation is more problematic than even that because of "blood sucking" and such....but never mind.

Male circumcision is treated more "legit" as it doesn't totally prevent men to have an orgasm or to have sexual pleasure, unlike female one, that also brings great pains on "giving birth" process. Also we got used to the "look" of such a penis as a "standard", and most women even see it as more "sexy", and the "normal one" as ugly/ugly skin. Female circumcision indeed shocks us more as those images we are not used to and it also cuts things "completely", and so it's closer to "cutting an arm", rather than male one that look just like "peircing-like"-type of operation. It also became part of our modern pop-culture and people got used to think it has health benefits. If you'd see only people with head cut - that would look normal to you too. That mutulated organ of an infant somehow looks normal to us at that time - and more sexy to females when he grows up.
I myself could never convince myself to attend such a barbaric ceremony (which is hard living in Israel when every infant has it), and everywhere I just saw blood...in my mind....walls with blood...couldn't get in 100 meter radius to such places. Everybody is celebrating blood, pain and mutulation.

Also "regular non-extremic" Jewdaism of "male circumcision" is more powerful in Europe/USA that extremic Islam of female circumcision.
Also we as a modern culture were tought to care only for female sexual pleasure/orgasm, and care less about male one, as "male will have such anyway".

If you have a male child, would you do circumcision on them?

I hope not to...but don't know. My parents did that to me after schoolpals laughed at me at the toilet. Can't judge them, not all parents want their child being made into a "freak show" by pals.
But that's in Israel....can't understand at all parents that do it in other countries. Those have really no reason to do so. Lack of health or any other benefits where proven long time ago, and the sexual, psychololical and ethical damage is clear. Though indeed it probably makes penis less sensitive and allows men to have the sexual act longer with more chances of pleasing a woman.

Thomas wrote:This is why I can't get hold of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

If you can't - ask me Before you lived in China - every Chinese looks the same.
Israeli-Palestinian conflict has deep roots and reasons, despite the "simulaties" of both sides.

Where you have religion - you have totalism and lack of compromise...if this land was given to you by God - you don't have the right to give it away. Nationalism, totalism, messiahism...

Both sides have alot of internal problems in issues that prevent getting to peace.
Religion, lack of leaders with "balls" that want more than just keeping their seat, political situation (and the way Israel political system is built) nationalism, propaganda, mutual demonization (and as a result - mutual fear and hate), totalism relating to land, God.....militarism, wanting to win more time to take over more land, lack of bravery of leaders to sell to their people solution of strong compromise - instead they sell people unlealistic dreams of "perfect solution where only one side wins"....long long list of issues, which are part of political and national "culture" of each side, it's national psychology.
1-sided educational system and politics with simplistic ideas (for the stupid "eat whatever they feed you" masses), slogans - that doesn't present the complexity of the conflict and humanity of both sides....focuses on differences and not simularities... Make people take sides of "good" was "bad", "heroes/Shahids" vs. "villains/opressors"....."holy victims" vs "criminals and bloody terrorists" and see those sides in each person before they see the common human ground.
Lack of trust with historic roots, 1-sided education and treating people of their side who want compromise - as non-legit "traitors"......
Built-in victimhood of each side....
Etc..etc.......etc........can go forever.

Orthodox jews = Islamists. Same sh!t. End of.

This is oversimplification of a very complicated issue.
Yes, extremists of any cult and idea around the world have common ground. Totalism, mind-control and brainwash, violence, streading, war against everything modern/open/different/threatening.......etc etc...long list.
Extremists of religion have even more common ground....like God's rules everyone needs to live by - Muslim Sharia vs. Jewish Halacha....
Was against sexual freedom, gender equality, free, independent and critical thinking etc etc etc...

BUT - still they are very different.
For example:
1. Ethics and level of violence
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(all those are DELIBERATE and planned attacks targeting civilians to seed terror!)

Jews don't blow up in civil buses
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Hotels
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Discotecs of young boys and girls dancing
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Jews don't shoot "aim control" rockets deliberately into schoolbuses
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They didn't come to villages at night and cut throats of infants with a knife, killing a whole family.
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Jews don't blow up the Twin Towers

2. Jews don't have "Jihad" concept and war against the world till everyone will be muslim....they at most would like to get Palestine territory.

3. Jews don't do female circumcision

4. They don't have schools when children are tought to blow themselves up killing jews - when they grow up:
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5. I can keep going

Orthodox jews are clear minority in Israel (though have unproportional political power and money), and even more so - in the World.
The most extremist orthodox live in Israel, and life-wise they are not less of extreme Muslims, and even are more "extreme" in many areas.
They are a de-fakto a sub-state with it's financial systems, justice sistems, educational systems, transportation etc.......
But they don't create militant Jihad organizations to create terrorist acts against civilians....

First and foremost I'd like to address an argument I cam across for circumcision from one of my favorite girls. (Then we ended up debating and she got offended and ran off. Facepalm.)

"It hurts less for a baby. They won't remember."

No, a baby won't rememer isn't an excuse. Because first, they do, for quite a while. This has been documented. The penis is sensitive. If you rip stuff off without painkillers, it will be traumatic. They get nightmares. Also, 'they won't remember' isn't an arguement. How about you cut a baby with knives, slap and kick them, because they won't remember? I'd like to think society has moved past this and can do common sense. There is still the (impending) fact that there's no reason to perform this procedure in the first place.

Now, Doomjedi!

Though even you don't know all of the details that I know...The operation is more problematic than even that because of "blood sucking" and such....but never mind.

Why nevermind, I'd like to know. I'd like to know everything that can be used to vilify circumcision, and I'd like to know the arguments for it so I can find better arguments against it. I've heard about the blood sucking.
Before I end up going crazy about religion, what people believe is their business; but once you impose physical harm on others based on your beliefs, I draw the line there.

Male circumcision is treated more "legit" as it doesn't totally prevent men to have an orgasm or to have sexual pleasure, unlike female one, that also brings great pains on "giving birth" process.

That's such false logic I don't know how to react. So we're going to say this much mutilation is ok and this much isn't. By the way, there are levels of female mutilation, it's not black and white, either, but all of them are frowned upon and illegal from my knowledge in the USA.

Also we got used to the "look" of such a penis as a "standard", and most women even see it as more "sexy", and the "normal one" as ugly/ugly skin.

The females there are just brainwashed. Males were designed with foreskin. Imagine if removing the boobs of girls were commonplace and that was considered 'normal'. Ew. Thanks for the warning, I am , never, EVER, going to move to your home country.

Female circumcision indeed shocks us more as those images we are not used to and it also cuts things "completely", and so it's closer to "cutting an arm", rather than male one that look just like "peircing-like"-type of operation. It also became part of our modern pop-culture and people got used to think it has health benefits. If you'd see only people with head cut - that would look normal to you too. That mutulated organ of an infant somehow looks normal to us at that time - and more sexy to females when he grows up.

I agree except from 'more sexy to females'. That's pretty subjective and culture influences our preferences. From what I see (And I'm pretty weird so I poll many females), they don't really give a rat's *** about the look of the penis... they don't really even LIKE the look of the penis that much, it's about what you can DO with the penis. Besides, having a brown V mark on your penis from circumcision isn't exactly the sexiest **** on earth either. The rest of the points you just mentioned is simply more reason to be on guard against forced circumcision.

I myself could never convince myself to attend such a barbaric ceremony (which is hard living in Israel when every infant has it), and everywhere I just saw blood...in my mind....walls with blood...couldn't get in 100 meter radius to such places. Everybody is celebrating blood, pain and mutilation.

Exactly. But here's the really crappy part: The kids in USA? They think it's a quick cut and fix and it's done in a flash. They don't know, and they think what they don't know can't hurt them. Quite ignorant they try to argue for it without the facts and assume. This isn't quick, bloodless, painless, OR a fix.

Also "regular non-extremic" Jewdaism of "male circumcision" is more powerful in Europe/USA that extremic Islam of female circumcision.
Also we as a modern culture were tought to care only for female sexual pleasure/orgasm, and care less about male one, as "male will have such anyway".

If that's true, that's again, quite sad. There are so many double standards for males and females. People people try to victimize females, saying they have all the **** coming while being a man is so easy.
Since orgasms are the best feeling in the world and we are designed to want them over almost anything else;
(Our brain partly shuts off during it; a test of rats showed they'd rather get stimulation than fufil basic needs (eating, drinking water), so they end up dying);
I find it EXTREMELY cruel and unusual to deprive one of that in any way shape or form, or diminish the feeling.

I hope not to...but don't know. My parents did that to me after schoolpals laughed at me at the toilet. Can't judge them, not all parents want their child being made into a "freak show" by pals.

I would not be so merciful. I would be in RAGE. I decide what I want done to MY body. Nobody DARE cuts off my body parts without my express permission to do so. People going to make fun of my penis? Well, FUCK THEM and their INCOMPLETE PENIS. They just don't know what the real **** looks like. I feel sorry for their sad asses.

I'd consider this to be worse than getting raped; if I had been raped, at least my penis would be intact. (Unless I catch an STD) Would you rather be raped or have body parts lopped off? I'd pick the first, because the first is just sex. Ad who knows, some people are desperate, it won't even be rape. Lol. But that's besides the point.

I'm unique in that I'm not that attached to people. So if my parents did that to me, especially when I'm 12 and I already voiced my opinion on this matter, I would literally leave my home and pretend I don't know them. Because I refuse to be part of a family that allows mutilation, and I really don't give two fucks whether religion or any other reason for that matter, convinced them to do it. Something at their core isn't right.

But that's in Israel....can't understand at all parents that do it in other countries. Those have really no reason to do so. Lack of health or any other benefits where proven long time ago, and the sexual, psychololical and ethical damage is clear. Though indeed it probably makes penis less sensitive and allows men to have the sexual act longer with more chances of pleasing a woman.

Hell yeah. I don't really hear people making fun of uncircumcised penises in USA.
There is the idea that making the penis less sensitive allows men to please the woman better;
Not saying I'm an expert in this field since I'm still a virgin and I plan to be until the right one comes along;
But there are more ways to please a woman than using your penis. Females very rarely get a vaginal orgasm, anyways, it's all clitoral stimulation.
But as a guy all you have is the prostate and the penis. And for most, just the penis. And I would go insane if that is diminished.

SO!

Now I have a new motto!

IF IT AIN'T BROKE, DON'T FIX IT.
Foreskin is not a privilege; it is a BIRTH RIGHT.
LEAVE (OUR) COLLECTIVE PENISES ALONE PLEASE. THANK YOU.

Dark_wizzie wrote:
How about you cut a baby with knives, slap and kick them, because they won't remember?

And what about retards and people with medical-documented long-term memory problems? Can we hit those? Or cut their penis off?
They won't remember...
What else we can do to infants because they "can't remember"? Rape? Feed them with crap and let them drink pee? Not change their dipers?

Before I end up going crazy about religion, what people believe is their business; but once you impose physical harm on others based on your beliefs, I draw the line there.

Religion is the first to use any "democratic" law or claim in their defence, at the same time being totally anti-democratic in their core. It's like they will use own "sword" against us, playing on democracy weaknesses, without being part of a democracy.
Yes, people have right to believe whatever....internally...as long as it doesn't hurt noone, and doesn't impose itself on others and on common public space/areas, respecting religion of others or lack of such....and as long as you finansially support yourself and don't rely on others to pay for you.
Multicultural balance is based on mutual respect. One cannot request respect for his ways if he doesn't accept the right of others to act their ways.
You have right to freedom - unless you act against freedom of others. You have right to create - unless in destroys creations of others.

That's such false logic I don't know how to react.

Don't forget I'm on your side on this subject. Unless you'll go into general "jew-hating" and such.

I agree except from 'more sexy to females'. That's pretty subjective and culture influences our preferences.

It's a fact in EVERY female poll all over the world. Show me a different poll, even one - I'd like to see
I never claimed this "fashion" is genetic. It's sure cultural, 100%
Your personal poll is not scientific, as it's statistacally unbalanced. You live in certain culture, country, you have aroung you sertain type of people you attact....
I do agree that if men would just the "We're NOT cutting no penis anymore!!!! - live with it!!!" - women would get used fast for a new situation....though full taste-changing can take several generations.

they don't really even LIKE the look of the penis that much

That's a fact in every poll too.
Sure as a man - I'm sorry to hear.

Since orgasms are the best feeling in the world and we are designed to want them over almost anything else;

Orgasm doesn't need genitals at all. Not only because of Tantra - but also there are tons of videos around the web where hypnotiser can make a immidiate orgasm to a woman (or man) ...(well, at least 85% of them who are suggective to hypnosys)..., for any length of time and number of times and any streingth - without even touching them.
It's all in the brain.

I would not be so merciful. I would be in RAGE. I decide what I want done to MY body. Nobody DARE cuts off my body parts without my express permission to do so.

I was a fresh and "thin/weak" immigrant from Ukraine, in a new country with new language, just a week in Israel ... "mamma's boy". I was not in a position to fight back.
I also didn't know anything about the circumcision, so where and why parents took me - I didn't know. Only when I was already in the hospital.

People going to make fun of my penis? Well, FUCK THEM and their INCOMPLETE PENIS. They just don't know what the real **** looks like. I feel sorry for their sad asses.

Please....be more understandful....you never lived in a country where EVERYONE's else penis looks different from yours, also it's a "jewish" look, and your penis is "unjewish"...and you live in a proud Jewish' state

since I'm still a virgin

I am as well And I'm 33 years old.

Don't forget I'm on your side on this subject. Unless you'll go into general "jew-hating" and such

Yes, I understand that.

Religion is the first to use any "democratic" law or claim in their defence, at the same time being totally anti-democratic in their core. It's like they will use own "sword" against us, playing on democracy weaknesses, without being part of a democracy.
Yes, people have right to believe whatever....internally...as long as it doesn't hurt noone, and doesn't impose itself on others and on common public space/areas, respecting religion of others or lack of such....and as long as you finansially support yourself and don't rely on others to pay for you.
Multicultural balance is based on mutual respect. One cannot request respect for his ways if he doesn't accept the right of others to act their ways.
You have right to freedom - unless you act against freedom of others. You have right to create - unless in destroys creations of others.

That's very well said, it should be hanged up and framed on many people's homes... What I was thinking but said better.

It's a fact in EVERY female poll all over the world. Show me a different poll, even one - I'd like to see
I never claimed this "fashion" is genetic. It's sure cultural, 100%
Your personal poll is not scientific, as it's statistacally unbalanced. You live in certain culture, country, you have aroung you sertain type of people you attact....
I do agree that if men would just the "We're NOT cutting no penis anymore!!!! - live with it!!!" - women would get used fast for a new situation....though full taste-changing can take several generations.

It's not scientific, that's true. But circumcision is dying out in America. It's becoming less and less and less common. My assumption would be then, that the females also adjust. I'd actually disagree with you here because in many parts of the world, circumcision isn't done at all. From what I know (correct me if I'm way off base), the Chinese do not do circumcision. Considering it's very populated over there, I'd think that the females do not prefer a circumcised penis. And since foreskin length itself also varies, sometimes there isn't a huge visual difference between an erect circumcised versus uncircumcised penis (except the circumcised one is subjected to scars). Although, I'd understand if the overwhelming majority of girls from your home country prefer circumcised penis, but I highly doubt the majority of the world has an expressed preference for a circumcised penis. The girls in China and Taiwan and Vietnam would be so unhappy then. I'd think (and hope) that circumcision would slowly start to disappear. However, from the looks of it, it's not dying anytime soon in a few places.

Orgasm doesn't need genitals at all. Not only because of Tantra - but also there are tons of videos around the web where hypnotiser can make a immidiate orgasm to a woman (or man) ...(well, at least 85% of them who are suggective to hypnosys)..., for any length of time and number of times and any streingth - without even touching them.
It's all in the brain.

Unless I am going to get hypnotized to have orgasms instead of having sex (And no, I'm not open to that so that wouldn't work regardless), I think I'll stick to the old method.

I was a fresh and "thin/weak" immigrant from Ukraine, in a new country with new language, just a week in Israel ... "mamma's boy". I was not in a position to fight back.
I also didn't know anything about the circumcision, so where and why parents took me - I didn't know. Only when I was already in the hospital.

That's very unfortunate. Do your parents still stand by what they've done?

Please....be more understandful....you never lived in a country where EVERYONE's else penis looks different from yours, also it's a "jewish" look, and your penis is "unjewish"...and you live in a proud Jewish' state

No, I understand that it's different where you live. I'm just saying what I'd feel if this happened in America. [And that means this isn't a place where circumcision is that common anymore, further proving that not all girls are crazy for circumcised] Absolutely, the places are different and so are the cultures. We are influenced by the culture quite a bit, so that makes perfect sense.

I still do not understand. A country based on RELIGION... In the 21st century?! From that aspect, Judaism/Israel is very much like Islam/The Arab world (aaand North Africa and South-East Asia). I just cannot get that into my mind. Then again, religion never really struck a chord up here... Let alone something as 'ethereal' as Judaism/Islam which seemingly affects its people very much more than Christianity ever could.

It's not scientific, that's true. But circumcision is dying out in America.

Hope so. Happy to hear.

the Chinese do not do circumcision.

Wanna say something on this matter, but don't want to sound racist

That's very unfortunate. Do your parents still stand by what they've done?

Never discussed that with them. Ever.
My mom is deseased, so it's also impossible now.

No, I understand that it's different where you live

Yeah...in some age people take hard the fact they have a different smartphone than of his pals.....not to mention penis

There is a small (but growing) movement of people in Israel who doesn't do this to their children.

Yeah...in some age people take hard the fact they have a different smartphone than of his pals.....not to mention penis

So think of an uncircumcised penis as an Android Galaxy III?

There is a small (but growing) movement of people in Israel who doesn't do this to their children.

I'd like to think that this is a growing trend around the places that usually do circumcision, that it's becoming less and less common.

Thomas wrote:I still do not understand. A country based on RELIGION...

Yes and No.
It's more complicated than just that.
A country that claims to be Jewish and Democratic. AT THE SAME TIME!!!!
As "Jewish" is religion and religion is never democratic in any aspect of it (it's a totalistic theocracy) - this makes a weird state that just sometimes acts as Jewish and antidemocratic - and sometimes - democratic but non-Jewish.
This is understandable after what I just explained - just wierd. It's like a person with 2 different heads acting different in different situation and time.

State of religion cannot be democratic by definition, as it cannot afford voting majority of different religion. So it will have eventually to take voting rights off non-jews (in order to survive) and this is antidemocratic. Or to support huge birth rate of jews - that crush financial system and leads to powerty, jobless rate, poor education - and eventual decay of the state, just as any country with excessive birth rate.

Dark_wizzie wrote:So don't judge me or label me. I'm not Hitler the 5th.

Just so that we're on the same page, I suppose you mean that Stalin, Mao Tse Tung, and The Cambodian Pol Pot are the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th Hitlers?

Dark_wizzie wrote:Who even suggested circumcision? A gazillion years ago. But who came up with the idea that, oh, ...

Look in the English or German Bible and Abraham's father is Terah. (In the Arabic Quran, Terah has a different name, but that's another story.) If the Bible is taken literally then God known as Elohim or El-Shadai or Yahweh told Terah or Abraham to circumcise as part of the Covenant. If you take the Bible literally, then Moses wrote the first 5 or 6 books of The Bible. If you don't, then my college History book indicates that David or Solomon wrote Genesis to try to unite his people. The only tablet outside of The Bible from the same period as Abraham that mentions somebody fitting the description of Abraham was an Ebla tablet. A gazillion years ago? Maybe 3,800 years ago to my understanding if it's taken literally. (Adam being a nudist playing with animals is based on Enkidu from The Gilgamesh Epic. Noah on the ark is based off of King Utanapishtim from The Gilgamesh Epic except he's sometimes called Ziusdra or another name.)

Ancient Egyptians also practiced circumcision. In the National Geograpic Egypt book that I have, a pharaoh went to war with a people that we would call Libyans and buried 23,000 uncircumsized Libyan men. I thought that was strange that they mentioned that.

I've heard that Anti-Semitism goes back to 300 or 400 BC partly because Greeks complained about Jews doing cirumcision.

Ethiopian Jews and Muslims also practice circumcision.

If this thread is about religion, then there are also Christians that you wouldn't approve of. Do internet searches for The Crusades, Inquisitions, The Westboro Baptist Church, or Pat Robertson. There are also Muslims that you wouldn't approve of...

doomjedi wrote:Yes and No.
It's more complicated than just that.
A country that claims to be Jewish and Democratic. AT THE SAME TIME!!!!

I went to college in America with Atheists, Agnostics, Catholics, Protestants, Mormons, Jews, Muslims, Bahais, Zoroastrians, Jordanians, Palestinians, Israelis, Iraqis, Afghanistanis, ... OK, so, my Canadian-born professor went to several countries and he said that Israel surprisingly was the most Americanized!?

stathmk wrote:Adam being a nudist playing with animals is based on Enkidu from The Gilgamesh Epic.

I strongly dissagree on the matter. There is no such parallel. Not only it's from different time (Gilgamesh is from Noah times and is mentioned in Dead Sea Scrolls as one of the Nephilim's "children"), but animal parallel is ...how to say it politely? Very unconvincing.

Adam is parallel to Adamu, there is no other version.

ADAMU

In Sumerian and Babylonian mythology, Adamu was the first man. The gods tricked Adamu and his descendants out of immortality - not wanting man to be immortal like the gods - by telling him that the magic food of eternal life was poisonous to him, and as such Adamu didn't eat it and so didn't become immortal.

Tree of Life anyone?

You guys are aware, aren't you, that foreskin cancer exists and circumcision decreases the rate of it? I didn't say that circumcision isn't painful. I didn't say circumcision is or isn't ethical. I didn't say circumcision is or isn't controversial.

I wonder if it's that circumsized men statistically have fewer partners. Also, HPV is believed to cause about 95% of ovarian or cervical cancer. I live in The USA and they are advertising a vaccine for ovarian or cervical cancer called Gardasil. But I don't know if HPV causes male cancers. I saw an article that researchers believe that viruses cause a larger rate of prostate cancer.

One of the guys who spoke at my high school only slept with 2 women and he has heterosexual AIDS. One of my college schoolmates has heterosexual AIDS. I remember a prediction from the 1980s or 1990s that one-third of all Americans would have heterosexual AIDS by the year 2000. Actually, the rate of AIDS transmission began going down in 1993 or 1994.

There's an American or Canadian radio host named Dr Dean Adel. One day we were listening to the radio again while driving. The topic was circumcision. A man phoned in calling himself gay, uncircumsized, and HIV negative. He said that some of his gay friends from the 1980s were circumsized and died from AIDS.

Heterosexual sex can be just as immoral or just as dirty. I bought an old 1998 TIME Almanac when I was still in college. It indicated that 87% of AIDS or HIV patients got it from heterosexual sex. The rest got it from being gay, bisexual, hemophilia concentrates, blood transfusions, doing IV drugs, or etc. Ryan White from Indiana was a hemophiliac, got AIDS from a blood transfusion or hemophilia medicine concentrate, and unfortunately died from AIDS. You might not have heard of him because he might not be as famous outside the USA. They didn't know as much about AIDS back then and ignorant freaks tormented him.

While we're talking about infections, it also says in the Bible to avoid piercings and tattoos. I think it's in Leviticus. An Indiana man got an infection in his brain from getting an eye-brow ring. He couldn't think normally. He had a lot of blood transfusions too. He had about a million dollars in medical bills. An Indiana girl got her nipple pierced and had an infection. Her breast had to be removed and the piercer was under investigation. People sometimes get hepatitis from tattoo needles.

I read a lot of History and Science articles to get information like this. Well, these are my 2 cents if we're going to be talking about hygiene.

Edit: So, you haven't heard of Enkidu from The Gilgamesh Epic? I need to go re-read it. I haven't read it in years.

doomjedi wrote:Tree of Life anyone?

How do you like them apples? (American figure of speech) That topless chick with big boobs and a snake is just hot! If lust is a sin then how come Adam was allowed to marry her?

In Discover magazine, the locals in Al-Qurna in Iraq canoe to show visitors where they believe the Tree of Life once stood?

stathmk wrote:You guys are aware, aren't you, that foreskin cancer exists and circumcision decreases the rate of it?

Did you know that cutting breasts of young girls prevent breast cancer?
And ripping teeth prevents teeth pains?
And cutting off arms of boys prevents violence, drinking and smoking? And dangerous driving?

Foreskin cancer chance: among uncircumcised males, 1 in 600.

1 in 600!!!!!!!!!!!

In that's a reason to cut our penis? With all the pleasure sensors?

It indicated that 87% of AIDS or HIV patients got it from heterosexual sex

New survey - 87% of parashute failures happened to people jumping with parashutes.
So we need to forbid parashutes.

While we're talking about infections, it also says in the Bible to avoid piercings and tattoos. I think it's in Leviticus. An Indiana man got an infection in his brain from getting an eye-brow ring. He couldn't think normally. He had a lot of blood transfusions too. He had about a million dollars in medical bills. An Indiana girl got her nipple pierced and had an infection. Her breast had to be removed and the piercer was under investigation. People sometimes get hepatitis from tattoo needles.

I know a famous person who died from crocodiles. IMHO we need to kill all crocodiles and all make "anti-crocodile" insurance just in case.
Let's forget about all those 1 of a 10000 cases. There are people who were killed by lightning too. We all need to stop walking outside.

So, you haven't heard of Enkidu from The Gilgamesh Epic? I need to go re-read it. I haven't read it in years.

I didn't say I didn't read it...I said - it has nothing to do with biblical Adam. And I say it BECAUSE I read it all and studied the matter.

stathmk wrote:

doomjedi wrote:Tree of Life anyone?

How do you like them apples?

Despite common belief - apples are never mentioned in the Bible. It says "fruit".
Apples were just idea someone invented.
There are no apple trees in that area, it 100% weren't apples.

stathmk wrote:You guys are aware, aren't you, that foreskin cancer exists and circumcision decreases the rate of it? I didn't say that circumcision isn't painful. I didn't say circumcision is or isn't ethical. I didn't say circumcision is or isn't controversial.

I wonder if it's that circumsized men statistically have fewer partners. Also, HPV is believed to cause about 95% of ovarian or cervical cancer. I live in The USA and they are advertising a vaccine for ovarian or cervical cancer called Gardasil. But I don't know if HPV causes male cancers. I saw an article that researchers believe that viruses cause a larger rate of prostate cancer.

One of the guys who spoke at my high school only slept with 2 women and he has heterosexual AIDS. One of my college schoolmates has heterosexual AIDS. I remember a prediction from the 1980s or 1990s that one-third of all Americans would have heterosexual AIDS by the year 2000. Actually, the rate of AIDS transmission began going down in 1993 or 1994.

There's an American or Canadian radio host named Dr Dean Adel. One day we were listening to the radio again while driving. The topic was circumcision. A man phoned in calling himself gay, uncircumsized, and HIV negative. He said that some of his gay friends from the 1980s were circumsized and died from AIDS.

Heterosexual sex can be just as immoral or just as dirty. I bought an old 1998 TIME Almanac when I was still in college. It indicated that 87% of AIDS or HIV patients got it from heterosexual sex. The rest got it from being gay, bisexual, hemophilia concentrates, blood transfusions, doing IV drugs, or etc. Ryan White from Indiana was a hemophiliac, got AIDS from a blood transfusion or hemophilia medicine concentrate, and unfortunately died from AIDS. You might not have heard of him because he might not be as famous outside the USA. They didn't know as much about AIDS back then and ignorant freaks tormented him.

While we're talking about infections, it also says in the Bible to avoid piercings and tattoos. I think it's in Leviticus. An Indiana man got an infection in his brain from getting an eye-brow ring. He couldn't think normally. He had a lot of blood transfusions too. He had about a million dollars in medical bills. An Indiana girl got her nipple pierced and had an infection. Her breast had to be removed and the piercer was under investigation. People sometimes get hepatitis from tattoo needles.

I read a lot of History and Science articles to get information like this. Well, these are my 2 cents if we're going to be talking about hygiene.

Edit: So, you haven't heard of Enkidu from The Gilgamesh Epic? I need to go re-read it. I haven't read it in years.

Why are we going off on infections?
And as Doomjedi stated, and also stated in the original thread post, 'might get infection' is not an argument against this. Your argument is completely invalid.

doomjedi wrote:

stathmk wrote:

doomjedi wrote:Tree of Life anyone?

How do you like them apples?

Despite common belief - apples are never mentioned in the Bible. It says "fruit".
Apples were just idea someone invented.
There are no apple trees in that area, it 100% weren't apples.

I know. In The Sistine Chapel Adam or Eve eats grapes because The Old Testament says fruit.

I've forgotten to mention something. The Indiana man with the eyebrow ring had the infection because of the piercing in the vital triangle of blood vessels.

doomjedi wrote:Did you know that cutting breasts of young girls prevent breast cancer?
And ripping teeth prevents teeth pains?

18 or 21 is the legal age of consent in America depending on the state. I think that if somebody wants to do something to their own body over age 21 like have sex, get a sex change, a tattoo, a piercing, liposuction, breast implants, or etc then fine. As long as they know about the possible consequences, don't break any laws, and the one that they consent to do it with is over 21. (Edit: I know I'm forgetting some things, but I need to leave in a few minutes.) There were American or Canadian cousins on the news with a family history of stomach cancer. They tested DNA and had a stomach cancer predisposition gene. So they decided to get their stomachs removed and stomach transplants. Some of their removed stomachs were observed as having stomach cancer cells. Some American women with a family history of breast cancer get their breasts removed.

You might have missed my point about the 87%. I know that Israel, Muslim countries, and southeast Asian countries possibly have a lower rate of AIDS than America. Maybe these countries put more emphasis on monogamy. Americans who don't have the information seem to be blaming AIDS on the gays. I don't know if Israelis blame guys.

I have to do something now and I'll check back in 2 or 3 hours. Can you wait if you want me to respond?

stathmk wrote:
18 or 21 is the legal age of consent in America depending on the state. I think that if somebody wants to do something to their own body over age 21 like have sex, get a sex change, a tattoo, a piercing, liposuction, breast implants, or etc then fine. As long as they know about the possible consequences, don't break any laws, and the one that they consent to do it with is over 21. (Edit: I know I'm forgetting some things, but I need to leave in a few minutes.) There were American or Canadian cousins on the news with a family history of stomach cancer. They tested DNA and had a stomach cancer predisposition gene. So they decided to get their stomachs removed and stomach transplants. Some of their removed stomachs were observed as having stomach cancer cells. Some American women with a family history of breast cancer get their breasts removed.

Yet circumcision is forced on newborns. I fail to see how there is a connection here for pro-circumcision.

Dark_wizzie wrote:...I fail to see how there is a connection here for pro-circumcision.

No, I now have an anti-circumcision argument because they are not legal age.

Dark_wizzie wrote:...Your argument is completely invalid.

Go back to read my paragraph with Dean Adel. I now have an anti-circumcision argument.

stathmk wrote:

Dark_wizzie wrote:...I fail to see how there is a connection here for pro-circumcision.

No, I now have an anti-circumcision argument because they are not legal age.

Dark_wizzie wrote:...Your argument is completely invalid.

Go back to read my paragraph with Dean Adel. I now have an anti-circumcision argument.

Oh, I see.
Although I have not met anybody that came up with good points for circumcision yet.

There is no doubt that grown-up of legal age can cut his penis for whatever. We're talking imposing it on infants.

stathmk wrote:
I know that Israel, Muslim countries, and southeast Asian countries possibly have a lower rate of AIDS than America.

Link?
...This also can be genetic...or testing percentage of population.....or.....or....you need a strong proof that this relates to monogamy specifically.
While there is no argument that the more unsafe sex you have with more partners - the more chanced for AIDS you have. So monogamy should indeed help.
But monogamy has it's other problems, so it's pro and cons as usual.
We don't only want not to have AIDS - we also want to be happy.
And Gays and not less monogamious than others, they create families nowdays etc... One liking men doesn't automatically makes you un-monogamious...they fall in love too, marry....They are people like us. They are just attracted to same sex.

Maybe these countries put more emphasis on monogamy.

This is true, in Israel specifically the Ultra-Orthodox. Though their lifestyle creates such a bunch of other problems (in so many areas - but also including health and hate of doctors/lack of treatment), that AIDS relatively to them could look like a blessing.

Americans who don't have the information seem to be blaming AIDS on the gays.

Almost every secular person has the same time where he sleeps with many partners till he/she settles. Blaming gays is an urban legend.

I don't know if Israelis blame gays.

We don't talk about AIDS that much here. But yes, I guess some blame gays...we just don't have epidemy of AIDS here so there is less hate/blame/fingerpointing.
We also have alot of "refugees"/illegal "incomers" from Africa that are easy to blame for every epidemic and desease/malaria - which we do. They are not vaccined, live in poor, dirty, un-sanitary areas not fit for happy or healthy human living.
Also we have many foreigh workers.

I don't see why people blame AIDS on gays.. That was just hysteria from homophobes. If anything I'd speculate that it came from all the crazy sex people had in what was it, the 60s? It's not like AIDS only affects gays.

Dark_wizzie wrote:I don't see why people blame AIDS on gays.. That was just hysteria from homophobes. If anything I'd speculate that it came from all the crazy sex people had in what was it, the 60s? It's not like AIDS only affects gays.

Sounds like you have drunk the leftist Kool-aid and are proudly spouting the party line, common-sense be damned!

I wouldn't say gays are the cause of AIDS. But it is a scientific fact that the three most prominent ways of the virus to spread from person-to-person are anal sex, blood transfusions, and sharing of needles. These three methods all bring the virus in direct contact with the bloodstream of the "recipient" which appears to be the only way to transmit it.

And the victims of these three methods are perceived by most people to be: gays, hemophiliacs, and mainlining drug addicts, respectively. I don't think that's an unreasonable perception.

As far as the original source or "cause" of AIDS, no one knows for sure, but "crazy sex" does not generate viruses to my knowledge...

Andy wrote:But it is a scientific fact that the three most prominent ways of the virus to spread from person-to-person are anal sex...

Tons of honorable people (or 'straight ones') have anal sex as well. Quite frankly, each time I'm out with the boys or I'm watching or wherever I go, people look at girls' asses and the hip people these days even write songs about it. Anal sex is not a strict gay thing; any bow-tie well-to-do homophobe wants his slice of the bum pie too now and then.

I'm still siding with Frank Zappa. Reagan's goons created AIDS in a government lab to clear homosexuality in the land of the free. Makes most sense to me!

I'm glad I was circumcised at birth. The result was a more aesthetically appealing (and easy to clean) unit. Plus, I have no memory of the event whatsoever, and didn't have to take time out of my busy 18th birthday.

As for AIDS, it's been traced back to the late fifties. The initial American explosion occurred within the gay community, leading to its working-title of "Gay-Related Immune Disorder" (GRID). This isn't surprising, given the nature of male sex drives coupled with the ease of transmission via unprotected anal intercourse.

Dr. Floppy wrote:I'm glad I was circumcised at birth. The result was a more aesthetically appealing (and easy to clean) unit. Plus, I have no memory of the event whatsoever, and didn't have to take time out of my busy 18th birthday.

Still doesn't mean forced circumcision should be legal.

Also, I think if you were uncircumcised you'd also feel your penis is better looking. You're just used to yours. I really don't think the extra 10 seconds used to clean some foreskin should even be mentioned. Since you like it probably only because you are used to it, it would probably never occur to you to even cut up your penis on your 18th birthday.

I'm generally against any form of body cutting, be it piercing or circumcision. God gave you this body, so why screw with it? And more importantly, why force people to screw with it?

I actually think force circumsision should be legal. I was circumsised when I was born. I am glad I was. I would not want to live through life not having been circumsised.

jpb6891 wrote:I actually think force circumsision should be legal. I was circumsised when I was born. I am glad I was. I would not want to live through life not having been circumsised.

Dude. You once again give no arguments for your stance. If you're just going to say "I disagree" in a debate area, just don't post.

Not wanting to live through life uncircumcised is my argument. I would feel uncomfortable being uncircumcised.

jpb6891 wrote:Not wanting to live through life uncircumcised is my argument. I would feel uncomfortable being uncircumcised.

You feel the need to have your foreskin sawn off? And what kind of argument for intelligent design would this be, babies are not born beautiful, they need to be sawed a bit. What about the people that don't want their penis mutilated? In botht his topic and the marriage topic, you always mention what you feel personally. The world isn't you. I think religion is full of bullshit and is dangerous, but I have not even voiced a call for "banning religion" or "forced deconversion".

You don't like gay marriage, so you think there should be a law to impose your beliefs on everybody else... NOBODY can have gay marriage for reasons you still have yet to clarify besides "I don't like it", quite similar to what's going on here. You don't like having foreskin, therefore parents should be able to force circumcision on their kids. What kind of BS is that? We're talking child mutilation here and I won't stand for that. This is PHYSICAL HARM. But instead, you reply with "I like it". It's you, you, you, you, you. Does it occur to you that not everybody thinks as you do or likes the same (twisted) thing you do?

A guy doesn't want to live life without having their left arm sawed off. Should parents be able to force their kids into having their left arm sawed off? Not to mention, even then, it's what YOU want, not what the BABY wants. You're preying on innocent, helpless babies.

So yeah, try again, bring up a real reason for allowing forced circumcision.

Totally disgusting custom. All religion is ultimately evil. Circumcision is wrong and should be illegal.