Are You Religious?

First topic message reminder :

I am agnostic. I feel you can never prove god.

Akuul wrote:...since we all dream of not knowing all the answers to all questions that generates faith.

Faith can take on many forms, and cannot be put in one basket.
Living in a very religious country, that has everything in the continuous range between atheists and religious fanatics - I can name a long list of "psychological and sociological "benefits"/characteristics" of religion and religious people.

doomjedi wrote:Faith can take on many forms, and cannot be put in one basket ...

I do not put everything in one basket, do not dump everything in one pile, and so on. I just think that, and religion, and social movements, and political organizations, and youth subculture are similar in nature... although the goals of course different.

Akuul wrote:

doomjedi wrote:Faith can take on many forms, and cannot be put in one basket ...

I do not put everything in one basket, do not dump everything in one pile, and so on. I just think that, and religion, and social movements, and political organizations, and youth subculture are similar in nature... although the goals of course different.

Well...it's more complicated than that....and more basic to human nature than politics or youth subculture.
This is usually called "Egregors".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egregore

Characteristics, evolution and dynamics of Egregors are described in many books in detail.
Every concept and idea is an egregor (and so comply to those laws), which can be various, scale, intensity, strictness...
Egregors are not good or bad, and can be both useful and very harmful...but this is the only way to create reality in the Old World. Each human had little power....so people combine their "pennies" of power into something bigger. Egregors create religions, movements, companies, fashion, countries, politics.........

Sect is one of the worst egregor example....religion is not too far away from sect, though "safer" in most cases.

The goal of an Egregor is survival and expansion (new members) + (sometimes) slow evolution. The more it expands - the more it needs to fight other Egregors...

"Evil", low-level Egregors can be recognized by the trickery ways they drag you in, by how hard is to get out of them, by their agressive expansion and attitude towards Egregors and people outside it....by how much energy, time and money they take/demand from you, by how they make you forget yourself - and just be and think thoughts of others. But how much you're ready to sacrifice yourself for the idea/ideal. How much they replace your own intuitive ethics and moral by external ones, and make you act upon....against your basic human morals and ethics, drives and instincts.

Better Egregors are much more flexible, non-violent and respectful to others, and are not built of expansion alone for itself, but are made for a positive good purpose....and even can dissolve after that purpose is achieved.
Or stay - but inspire creativity and imagination - like StarWars egregor...

In Egregor there is always an exchange - you get something for something. You always give more to it than you get in return. You get the most out of an Egregor right when you enter in (like cellular company contract) or try to leave, and less and less otherwise. Sometimes it gives prizes to some, like Lottery Egregor, but most are just enslaved to it, like in every financial piramid.

In this sense - Religion acts as "low-level/primitive" Egregor, that gives you false feeling of meaning, of feeling better than others, more rightful/saint/absolute_truth_beholder, feelings of safety, giving responsibility to your life to someone bigger than you (as long as you follow his laws and rules), being part of a larger group, being loved by God more than others, having someone else to tell you what is wrong and what is right, what to do, what to think, how to behave in each situation, what morals and ethics to have.....and many many more.
- In exchange for your time, money, attention, energy, critical thinking, uniquness, freedom, rights........and much more.

But Religion has some specific attributes and sub-Egregors, like concepts of Heaven, Hell, Sin, Sacredness, Devil, Judgement/Judgement Day, Chosen people, Sacrifice, Messiah....all those create a very unique and interesting Egregor with powerful tools to control/enslave you and your mind.

doomjedi wrote:.."Egregors"..

Familiar word. Met him in a book devoted to the Old Testament writings, apocrypha, and in particular the Book of Enoch. Met variant of the word in the Greek dialect (if I remember correctly) "egrorikoi". One of the meaning (translation) - guards, custodians. So called angels who descended from heaven to teach men of science, art, military affairs, etc.
.
Fragment of the Book of Enoch

6. And they went on Ardis, which is the peak of Mount Hermon, and they called it the mountain Hermon because on it and swore to each other spoken spells.
7. And these are the names of their chiefs: Semyyaza, their chief, Urakibarameel, Akibeel, Tamiel, Ramuel, Danel, Ezekeel, Sarakuyyal, Azael, Batraal, Anani, Tsakebe, Samsaveel, Sartael, turrets, Iomyyael, Arazyyal, is two hundred angels, lords, and other they were all with them.
Eight. And they took them wives, and each chose for himself one, and they began to come in to him, and mingle with them and taught them magic and spells, and opened them to shearing roots and trees
..
14. And Azazel taught men to make swords and knives, and shields, and armor, and taught them to see what was behind them, and taught them the arts: wrists, and jewelry, and the use of white and blush, and the decoration of the eyebrows, and adorned with precious and great stones, and all sorts of colorful fabrics, and metals of the earth.
..
16. Amezarak taught all sorts of spells and shearing roots Armaros - termination of spells, Barkan - observation of the stars, Kokabel - signs, and Temel taught the observation of the stars, and taught Astradel motion of the moon.

Yep, as I "studied" all those sources (and much more others) - this quote is very familiar to me. Those sources are very interesting
(Did you know "sumerian" Gilgamesh is mentioned in "Giants" Kumran scrolls?)

...In general - smaller Egregors tend to evolve faster, as the bigger the Egregor is - the more resistive will it be to any change. Those "large" Egregors are military, education, medicine, science... really huge Egregors.

doomjedi wrote:..Did you know "sumerian" Gilgamesh is mentioned in "Giants" Kumran scrolls?..

Yes. These texts are familiar to me too. There was a time I read a lot as far as possible and book Aleister Crowley too. I also wanted to organize all available to me the myths and legends. In them, even at first glance, have much in common ..
But if we assume the study, a comparison of different texts I think the book should be studied in their native tongue ..

doomjedi wrote:
sub-Egregors, like concepts of Heaven, Hell, Sin, Sacredness, Devil, Judgement/Judgement Day, Chosen people, Sacrifice, Messiah....

Heaven (Garden of Eden/Paradise) in Judaism originally was not a public place, and only Enoch/Metatron was there.
Making Heaven a public place is later revolution, as part of all AfterLife concept development - which Christianity developed even further.
Combined with eternal Hell it became a powerful mind-control tool.

With (eastern) concepts reincarnation, karma, and pre-birth/eternal existence of the soul cencored out for obvious mind-controlling benefits, making Heaven or Hell the only 2 final "destinations" of the soul - it became even a stronger tool to make people obey the "church" in their "only incarnation" given (with no re-play), live in fear, guilt, shame and not believing in unconditional love by the Creator.

Sin and Judgement another clear mind-control tools of a more general concept of "conditional-love" God, to keep you ever guilty...Sins created by ALL people as the unnatural and overstrict laws require them to give up on their basic human needs and desires, sexual and other. The stricter are the laws, the more sins are created, the stronger is the shame, and easier is the control. People hide their sins to look holy-er than their friends and neighbours - creating areas of dark secrets...
Combined with Heaven or Hell "1 life to earn Heaven and escape Hell" concept, people not only try to save themselves - but try to save others (known to them, relatives and even unknown) from Hell - making the Egregor to naturally expand.

"Chosen people" is another concept to make people in the "sect" to feel chosen, better, wiser, more loved, more special - ignoring the clear rasizm of the approach, contradicting basic human rights for equality. This plays for the egos of the weak-minded, and we have alot of those in the world for Egregor to feed off.

Indeed...you need to know/study the original language, as otherwise you work off translations - that are personal subjective interpretations.

doomjedi wrote:Indeed...you need to know/study the original language, as otherwise you work off translations - that are personal subjective interpretations.

..and if we take into account how many books were lost, how many books no available for a wide range of readers.. So I came to the conclusion that any interpretation must be exclusively "for personal use".

Well, indeed I'm sad for all the lost books....others - local people tell that Vatican immidiately (after translation) removed to the Vatican's library any mythology-related archeological discoveries/tablets, especially in Syria (Ugarit etc.....) under claim that those undermind all major modern religions, which I probably assume to be tales of Yahveh's wife and relation/origins within existing Sumerian/Akkadian/Babylonian gods pantheon.
I've seen a video from those places when local people tell this.

Here are some clues:

http://news.discovery.com/history/god-wife-yahweh-asherah-110318.html
http://somethingsurprising.blogspot.com/2011/07/asherah-wife-of-yahweh.html
http://evolutionofgod.net/q/yahweh

This is not 100% proof... but still quite "alarming".

I can only wonder how our world would look like if Alexandrian library woudn't be burned... or all the Kumran scrolls to be found...and such and such.

But lost books is even less of a trouble...as the "key" to translation of found sources cannot be found...one word could have tons of different meanings depending on the context....not to mention copying mistakes, and translation mistakes of the ancient people themselves....Torah is a good example of bad sumerian translations...

http://www.domainofman.com/forum/index.cgi?noframes;read=1250

not to mention deliberate censorship etc....again, there are plenty of examples.

Reading book about Ugaritic language...you really see it first hand...how one shouldn't even attempt to translate it if it doesn't know the language perfectly. There are detailed translation examples there and you can see the skill you need to translate it...and how it can mean different things... and how it can be easily manipulated.

doomjedi wrote:..Torah is a good example of bad sumerian translations..

I do not support the fact that "some ancient people" used the texts of the "other ancient people." Even in our modern time, you can face the fact that you will not be allowed on the threshold of the house just because you represent a different race, culture. What, then, to talk about past times? Therefore, I can hardly imagine a situation when the ancient Jews could freely read the sacred texts of the Sumerian and Chinese scrolls.
I'm more inclined to believe that the different ancient peoples told the one story about God. But the words and the images were close to the mentality and world view of each individual nation.
- In Greek mythology, Prometheus helped people.
- In the legends of the Maya mentioned a wise ruler with a white shiny leather high growth.
- In the biblical texts (more apocrypha), angels have descended from the sky.
- In India, Krishna descended to earth from the spiritual world, having been born in the town of Mathura.
In general, there is a good book "The Hero with a Thousand Faces" (Joseph Campbell, 1949)..
The author examines various myths for the birth and formation of a hero. The main advantage of the book - the text is not criticism and humiliation of different beliefs.

doomjedi wrote:..There are .. translation .. and how it can be easily manipulated..

This can be done without translation .. I remember one book by a French author (can not remember the name) .. He sought in the myths of devil "with horns, tail and hooves." Of course every time he did not find and "surprised" .. At the end of the book, he "came" to the Old Scriptures, and partly to the New Testament .. and announced the "news" - the Bible also no devil "with horns, tail and hooves." The question arises - why write huge text (big book) that can be put in a few words? More precisely - the image of devil formed later Christian traditions especially in the Middle Ages.
Manipulation? Yes. Manipulation, not for ideology but for the sake of money. In the preface to the book was written that it became a best seller ..

Akuul wrote:
I do not support the fact that "some ancient people" used the texts of the "other ancient people." Even in our modern time, you can face the fact that you will not be allowed on the threshold of the house just because you represent a different race, culture. What, then, to talk about past times? Therefore, I can hardly imagine a situation when the ancient Jews could freely read the sacred texts of the Sumerian and Chinese scrolls.
...........
........I'm more inclined to believe that the different ancient peoples told the one story about God. But the words and the images were close to the mentality and world view of each individual nation.

This touches a very complicated issue....actually all the important issues at once....so I'm a little stun to think about what to begin my answer from....as it touches so many complicated issues regarding ancient texts and religions....and most of those issues seem less religious than you might think.

Let me just say at this moment that from all that I researched and read - this seems to be very far from the truth.

Are sumerian Gods making humans (after many crazy genetic mutations) for easy primitive slavework at the gold mines of Ab-Zu (Zu-Ab ==> "Zahav" - "gold" in hebrew) - a "one story about God"?
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sitchin/genesisrevisto/genrevisit08.htm
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sitchin/sitchinbooks07_04.htm
That was the base of my (now scrapped) "Secret or Eridu" mod

IMHO the story is much more complicated.

Before we can discuss the common origins of those texts and religions...we need to decide what those text actually depict (can be different texts depicting different things...but still)...does what they depict look like something that can be given by God or depict God, Angels and their "actions" - or historic record of ancient civilizations and interventions that might look "God-like" to primitive men...or were those spiritual texts - but simply passed from older civilizations of Atlantis, Lemuria?

From all that I've learned so far - origin of modern civilization (I'm talking only about modern one) was either Atlantis
(that finished sinking 12.000 years ago...itself originating in 50.000 old Lemurian civilization)
or the Annunaki ("Deluge")
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sitchin/esp_sitchin_0.htm
....and it started with Sumerian culture (maybe parallelly with old Egyptian one, especially relevant to Atlantis version) around 10.500 BC - either after a Deluge (Annunaki timeline) or sinking of Atlantis (Atlantis approach timeline). It was re-birth of civilization based on "before-disaster" ancient knowledge...that maybe even brought the disaster. This probably from survivors and/or other alien races.

Civilizations were reborn by survivors from Atlantis or the Annunaki that could reach paralelly more than one place on Earth, so almost parallely many advanced and simular civilisations were born. Egyptian, Sumerian - all tell us about those "teachers". Especially after the "Deluge" or Atlantis descent.
This explains the sacredness and secrecy of those text - as they can be used for evil and even destroy civilizations, like they could cause Sodom and Gemorrah or destruction of Atlantis.
This does mean that sacred spiritual texts can be given there as well...

So in this sense - all those religions and mythologies had the same origins...
People from those civiliations can create new religions based on that knowledge as a base...those can be seen as "later civilizations"
Sumerian civilization is clearly older than Jewish one. This doesn't mean that Abraham couldn't be originating from Sumerian culture, Ur/Nippur.... Many Bible stories are short monotheistic re-write of older and more detailed Sumerian sources. Kain and Abel, Deluge, Garden of Eden, Language mix-ups, even creation myth.......
But this doesn't say that all civilizations and religious are coming directly from the same source, or teacher...or equally old....or never were influenced/never copied sacred texts of one another.

http://phoenicia.org/ugarbibl.html
Torah itself forbids everything that is simular to the godswork of all peoples around jews...it clearly writes that for long period jews were worshipping other Gods - which means they knew related theology, tales, mythology and probably had access to related texts and scriptures....and united with other non-jews to worship other gods.
In the Torah itself we have names of other Gods (Ashera, Baal....), we have prophets talking about not worshipping them...so people probably have have known those well. They were even working those in the Temple itself.
All those mythologies of the same area were mixed up and known to everyone. Not to mention Egyptian mythology known to the jews who lived in Egypt long time.

Have you read Books of Sitchin? Can send you the books for reading. You prefer English or Russian? Can post a link.

doomjedi

I think that the proof of origin of people from one civilization could be ancient writings on a one dialect found in different parts of the world. Excavations should be on one the same "historic level" .. well, and the appropriate expertise ..
By the way in translating a book of Moses there is a difference in one of the poems. This is an episode which tells about what people were talking at the same dialect.

First Book of Moses. Being. Chapter 11 - And the whole earth had one language and one speech ... they (people) found a plain in Shinar and settled there .. And they said ... let us build ourselves a city and a tower whose top may reach heaven, and let us make a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.

Thora. Bereyshis. Noyah. Day 11 - And the whole earth was of one language and one speech. .. they (people) found a valley in the land of Shinar and settled there. And they said one to another, let us make brick, ... And ... build us a city and a tower, head up to the heavens, and make a name for themselves, so we are not scattered over the face of the earth.

It seems to be a trifle but the motive for the construction of the tower is different ..

doomjedi - ..Have you read Books of Sitchin? Can send you the books for reading. You prefer English or Russian? Can post a link.

Books of this author has not read. But the story once existed a planet known to me. Another name for the planet - Phaeton.

wiki.ru - Phaeton, or Olbers planet - the name of a hypothetical planet that supposedly existed previously between Mars and Jupiter, and then broke up and formed the asteroid belt. In the XVIII century astronomers Titius and Bode found that the distance of the then known planets from the Sun obey the law of geometric progression (this pattern was called the rule of Titius - Bode). However, this sequence was the one "unallocated" space - there was no planet, which was located between Mars and Jupiter at a distance of about 2.8 a. au from the Sun..

"Phaeton - the son of the Sun" (USSR, Soyuzmultfilm, 1972)

From books Sitchin will not give up .. better in Russian ..

Akuul wrote:
I think that the proof of origin of people from one civilization could be ancient writings on a one dialect found in different parts of the world.

Indeed, there are Sumerian-related findings found in Amerika, Australia....

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sitchin/sitchinbooks08_03.htm
http://www.faculty.ucr.edu/~legneref/archeol/fuentema.htm
http://www.world-mysteries.com/sar_8.htm
.........
....

This suggests communication/travel between different continents in different times....with all the depictions of flying "devices" depicted in all parts of the world (with images, scutlptures and texts) - this is not much of a miracle.


Indeed it suggests spreading of either Atlantean or Annunaki "religion" across the continents. In Annunaki version this is simply explained by metal/gold mining around the world, mostly by Enki clan. In Atlantean version, after the sinking of Atlantis - survivors spead across continents giving birth to "sudden out of nowhere" civilizations.

This is what we see - sudden birth of great and advanced cilivizations (Sumerian, Egyptian, Dogon), almost simultaniously all around the world, with type of knowlegde that takes endless generations to develop - in perfect building techniques, astronomy and many more areas.
Moreso - all those civilizations claim their knowledge to external "teachers", they even describe them in details, with names and looks. Teachers that came (sometimes from the sky), teached....left....or stayed...

This doesn't prove the knowledge came from God...or Angels...and both Atlantean and Alien versions deal with this simpler and nicer. And more logical, if you know the historic context.
In Atlantis case - indeed we are talking about advanced spiritual knowledge...spirituality, healing...though it was hard to preserve such among primitive society, so it could be fastly and strongly distorted.

And the whole earth had one language and one speech ...

Note this is english translation....the original text can be interpreted in much more different ways.
The "one speech" part is written in plural form (!!!) and shouldn't be translated as "one speech", but actually a more logical translation would be "same things". Alternatively this can be translated (as one common language +) several dialects.
"One speech" in Hebrew is actually "Dvarim Achadim". First word means "things" in modern hebrew, though indeed comes from the "speech" root of "Dibur" - "D-B-R", and there is still one modern hebrew expression that has the "speech" meaning left. "Achadim" on the other hand comes from the root of A-CH-D - which can mean "unified"/ "a few singular things"/"several"....As it's a plural form or "echad - one" and naturally tends to depict a few "ones" and not single one. Maybe a few unified ones from the word "Leached" - to Unify.

Note we have this myth both in Torah and in Sumerian Texts related to Sumerian God Enki:

Confuser of languages

In the Sumerian epic entitled Enmerkar and the Lord of Aratta, in a speech of Enmerkar, an incantation is pronounced that has a mythical introduction. Kramer's translation is as follows:[11]

Once upon a time there was no snake, there was no scorpion,

There was no hyena, there was no lion,
There was no wild dog, no wolf,
There was no fear, no terror,
Man had no rival.

In those days, the lands of Subur (and) Hamazi,
Harmony-tongued Sumer, the great land of the decrees of princeship,
Uri, the land having all that is appropriate,
The land Martu, resting in security,
The whole universe, the people in unison
To Enlil in one tongue [spoke].

(Then) Enki, the lord of abundance (whose) commands are trustworthy,
The lord of wisdom, who understands the land,
The leader of the gods,
Endowed with wisdom, the lord of Eridu
Changed the speech in their mouths, [brought] contention into it,
Into the speech of man that (until then) had been one.

From all the possible explantions of that One language - the 2 that look most promicing are:

1. One Language = Visual Telepathy....skills of such. After that human ability was disabled genetically/spiritually - different languages appeared.

2. One Language - visual representations (skipping individual pronunciations into direct meaning)....and not letters. Pictorials...When you see an image on a "eye" - everyone understands it's an "eye", so the meaning is never lost and it's unites people. This is "right brain" type of reading. When you go from this to "left-brain" oriented alphabet, letters and such... everyone can read and pronounce it differently - and this different prononciation is later written from hearing in a different form...and copied it from hearing into many different versions, dialects, meanings - those distortions create different languages and people stop understand one another - so this process might be depicted in the tale...
Even modern letters have names that have remains of their original pictoglyph representations.

Taking Hebrew as just one example: "Bet - Bait - Home", "Dalet- Delet- Door", "Ain - Eye",

Books of this author has not read. But the story once existed a planet known to me. Another name for the planet - Phaeton.

Phaeton is usually associated with Maldek rather than Nibiru...being part of our Solar System.
Maldek is the common "spiritual" name for the "hypothetical planet that supposedly existed previously between Mars and Jupiter"
Nibiru/Planet X had different characteristics.

From books Sitchin will not give up .. better in Russian ..

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3751922/Sitchin_rus.rar

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3751922/Sources_sitchin.rar
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3751922/Ancient%20Myths.rar

English:

Spoiler:

doomjedi wrote:One Language = ..telepathy ..visual representations ..cuneiform..

Telepathy? Show me though, would be a telepath who could actually read all the thoughts and feelings and share them at a distance and it will be a fact. But it was not and is not present. So long as telepathy is akin to the Loch Ness monster. I agree only that there are people who can guess some words or numbers .. But love the guy and the girl, too, are capable of such feelings .. Does this mean that they are telepathic?
Visual representations? Pictures? Cuneiform ..as a single adverb?
At the same time we take a quote that you gave from Sumerian epic..

doomjedi wrote:Changed the speech in their mouths, [brought] contention into it,
Into the speech of man that (until then) had been one...

The key word - conversation (speech). So in the text clearly states that people are talking (!) on the one dialect. Or are you saying that the ancients were talking (!) to each other cuneiform or pictures?

doomjedi wrote:Phaeton is usually associated with Maldek rather than Nibiru...

It is assumed that the Phaeton was formerly part of the solar system (10th planet).
"Nibiru - the main element of Sitchin's theory. He argues that this is the 10th planet of a very elongated, elliptical orbit that passes through the solar system every 3600 years" (с).
That is, in my opinion the theory of the planet Nibiru is a modified and revised the legend of Phaethon
.
At the same time I want to say so - theory justification of highly races who lived in the distant past can also be dangerous.
In the message which has been lost I used the example of sect members who associate themselves with arias flown from other planets. To quote two fragments..

http://www.velesovkrug.ru/ wrote:Wisdom Ynglings brought the first white people who moved to the Earth (Midgard) from the constellation Ursa Major Space during the Third War, when the solar system had 27 planets. Initially, they lived in the country Daarija, located on the mainland circumpolar Arctis. It is these aliens possessing superior knowledge and the divine origins of civilization have taught all the basics the rest of humanity. Incidentally, according to his father Alexander, a race on earth, only one - white, because the word "race" "translated" them with daarskogo language as "White Leopard". Physical features and skin color differences (white, red, yellow, green, black) for current and extinct races A.Hinevichem explained by the fact that the ancestors of different races came to Earth from different constellations.Therefore, the doctrine Ynglings prohibits interracial marriage: a mixed breed unsustainable.

http://slavyanin.org/ wrote:Rotating Cross of Life, which carry the Slavs and Arias called Swastika. How could they bear it? To understand this, consider the image and likeness of God, or, in modern terminology, spiritual and energetic structure of Man.
For the Slavs and the Aryans, it is a radiant 16-dimensional energy-cocoon material is outside time and space. The projection of its manifestation in the 4-dimensional (length, width, height and time) of the material world resembles the shape of the 9 different colors .. They glow and flux penetrating the worlds Navi, Yavi and the Pravi collected the Will of God, in His own image and likeness, in the spirit and energy the cross, consisting of a 37-key and 144-s auxiliary revolving swastikas ... This is the Man and His Cross. True, these things can only mature spiritual eyes.

Of course, in an interview to journalists Ynglings talk about tolerance for other religions and other peoples. But in reality (article's, dialogues on the forums), their ideas are close to the Nazis.
No I do not want to accuse anyone .. I just think that in today's world new theories and philosophies often give negative results.

Akuul wrote:
Visual representations? Pictures? Cuneiform ..as a single adverb?

I was describing two theories that are not mine, but sounded interesting enouph to me - and sure more logical than Creator of the Universe directly and immidiately changing languages of people, just because they tried to build a tall tower.
As every "quote" - it's less convincing taken out of it's original context, and so the sources of those theories exlain them and support them there in much more detail, including linguistic study of evolution of languages.

If you think this is unconvincing - you probably never looked at the original text with sane eyes.
Let me re-tell you the story in much clear form.

1. People wanted to build a tall tower (probably zikkurat), with (described there) primitive bricks and building methods - just to get famous.
2. God descents (?) to see the city....probably lost his distance-glasses somewhere. He is old, you know... He can't have a presence everywhere...or can he?
3. God, Creator the Stars and Galaxies is intimidated by that primitive human tower, and says people will now be able to do whatever they want. Where the conclusion comes from - is unclear. If you can build a tall tower - you can do EVERYTHING?
(Sitchin's explanations are much more logical in this context)
4. Now he turns to some group of other Gods/entities in plural form, as part of a wider discussion - "Let's get down (well, Gods needs help in this one....can't do it alone you know...and again "get down" - Aliens can get down...not Gods), and mix their languages (wow, probably the simplest way of God to stop people from building a tower...maybe he also stole their shoes).
At least he didn't send them a Deluge this time, for building a tall tower...we is a known "humanity wipe-out-er".
All they wanted to do is a tall tower.

Now let's replace God with Mubarak during the Arab Spring....he disconnected the one thing that helped to unify people against him - the internet. And he was seen as evil by the world...maybe because he was not named "God".
Not caring how this will make life of people difficult... He saw a threat to him, so he acted by "divide and control", to stop people from protesting him, from cooperation and syncronization of rebel efforts. Sure one language is a threat....to a Tyran....not to a God....if it's a threat to a God, if it's a reason to punish men so severely by destroying their communication so they will not understand one another, fight one another, kill one another in wars for eons, creating separation and conflict... then what kind of God is it? Does it depict a God? Since when God cares about tall towers, or for humans freely communicating among themsleves in one language? What kind of God prefer cultural wars over unifying people, who loves to divide people for easier control?

Now let's get real.
God talks to himself in plural form because the original sumerian text was not monotheistic...it had many Gods divided into 2 main rival clans, with Gods commitee to discuss such matters.
The Deluge story depicts simular discussion.

We first need to answer what was the real goal of the Babel Tower...was it just a Tower? Why the God/s saw it as a threat?
You don't have to take Sitchin's answers for it, but just think for yourself, the story doesn't make any sense.

If you read the Sumerian origins - you see the context....and everything becomes much clearer.
Every tales we discussed - from Snake/God (actually Enlil/Enki) faceoff in Garden of Eden... to Deluge "Noah Saving God (Enki) vs. Humanity destroying God (Enlil)", to Kain and Abel....to Babel tower story, to Sodom and Gomorrah - everything is not about humans, is not a human conflict and is not ever even a Human/god conflict.
EVERY such story depict conflicts between Gods (read Sitchin's "Wars of gods and men"), mainly two main clans - Enki and Enlil.
Yes, those gods are depicted using humans to fight their wars (and being it's victims too)...manipulating humans...fighting among themselves for control over humans and territories, and sacred artefacts....Earth was just a playground for them and their flying vehicles/weapons. Earth actually has areas where you see clear post-nuclear-explosion materials that are created only by Nuclear bombs and wars (that were never there in modern times), those wars are even depicted in ancient sources. Areas and civilisations were destroyed.... Not only that - mines were discovered that were used to get the atomic materials.
There are ruins that could be created only by nuclear blast or a very powerful weapons.... many ancient civilisations were fighting, destrying themselves...

So Babel Tower story is not about humans...it's another fight between Enki clan and Enlil clan.
Then you can see how this Tower is a threat to some "gods".

"Nibiru - the main element of Sitchin's theory. He argues that this is the 10th planet of a very elongated, elliptical orbit that passes through the solar system every 3600 years" (с).

He never claimed it to be between Mars and Jupiter.
Actually that planet was Maldek or Tiamat.

At the same time I want to say so - theory justification of highly races who lived in the distant past can also be dangerous.

I'm reading now this book:
http://e-puzzle.ru/page.php?al=bred_stajgerarxeologic

Read it and I want to see you keeping such opinion

This and other books (for example about the glyphed stones discovered in America (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ica_stones...http://www.bcvideo.com/mom10.html I've read detailed books about) prove (among many many other things) quite clearly that humans lived paralelly to Dinosaurs...millions years ago, they are depicted together, their bones are found together.... That we know nothing about Evolution...and it's actually not an evolution of Darvin, but a (endless?) cicle of great humanoid (and not only?) civilizations created, flourish and destroy themselves, and new ones being built on their ruines...and then perish...after wars or cataclisms.... as Fon Deniken said - "the bigger is the structure - the more ancient it is".
If you need proofs for that - read that book above

Modern "evolution" archeology is absurd.

Let's collect all the things our loving God doesn't want us to have:

1. He doesn't want us to live forever because it'll make us too God-like
2. He doesn't want us to have knowledge, and to know to tell Good from Bad...as it'll make us (from the Bible - "He'll become one of "us")
3. He doesn't want us to build a tall tower or use our common language for a joined effort - it's it'll make us too God-like, too powerful, too united...He prefers us separated by many languages and internal wars and conflicts.
4. He kills all Humanity by Deluge, just because he is not pleased with result of his own creation...though if humans were created unperfect - it meants he is unperfect Creator, not to mention him not noticing or being able to prevent his own "Sons of God" from long-time interbreeding with Humans. Then somehow he promices never to do that (Deluge) again... (even in the same/simular situation? Then why did you kill all of them in the first place?)
....
..

doomjedi

I have to translate into English all that I think about the meanings of biblical texts and symbols so the answer later .. After about three days.
The main thing - let's avoid comparisons with current or former politicians of the modern world. Because references to events in North Africa hardly appropriate here. No one is hiding that these coups open the way to power for the Islamic radicals. A redistribution of power and territory that is now happening in Libya is an example of what can happen in other North African countries.
And then - wait and see.

Ok, let's keep politics out of this

doomjedi

Reading your questions (items), it seems that you either got to be kidding, or trying to joke or play on words.

doomjedi wrote:1. He doesn't want us to live forever because it'll make us too God-like

After death there is life.

doomjedi wrote:2. He doesn't want us to have knowledge, and to know to tell Good from Bad...as it'll make us (from the Bible - "He'll become one of "us")

Kabbalah has given the world many sages. And there are other philosophers. And you want to say that there is no freedom of choice?

doomjedi wrote:3. He doesn't want us to build a tall tower or use our common language for a joined effort - it's it'll make us too God-like, too powerful, too united...He prefers us separated by many languages and internal wars and conflicts.

From the life of - You know the word Esperanto? So what? If people do not want to live in a world they destroy themselves. God is to blame? Do not be ridiculous.

doomjedi wrote:4. He kills all Humanity by Deluge, just because he is not pleased with result of his own creation...

Read my brief previous answers
.
I want to give you some advice - if you have a talent for computer games and computer graphics, then forget about the rest
.

Akuul wrote:
Reading your questions (items), it seems that you either got to be kidding, or trying to joke or play on words.

The basis if this dialogue is than none of us does any of the listed.
So if you think I'm kidding - than this gialogue is pretty much redundant.

IMHO religious people "play on words" when they ask someone "does he believe in God". They are actually asking "Do you believe in my depiction of God" (aka "The bible God"). Making an assumption that if God exists - it's depicted in the Bible.
IMHO if God wasn't associated with a "Bible God" - more people would believe him (as they actually do)

But even if he exists - the whole idea of Worshipping Him (or assuming he wants to be Worshipped) is a weird attitude.

Spoiler:

doomjedi wrote:1. He doesn't want us to live forever because it'll make us too God-like

After death there is life.

So? We both agree on that statement as it is (despite no hints to AfterLife in the old testament itself (just like in Sumerian sources), only in later New Testament, so we have no indication that original author saw this just as getting faster to afterlife).
But this is not the issue here - but the purpose of human life, the one he limited.
Let's compare 5 sources for inner-consistency and logic:

1. Eastern Religions/New Age - human is incarnated on Earth to develop over a course of many lifetimes to be more God-Like (and exit Sansara circle), learning different lessons in different bodies and situations, as you cannot learn it all in just one sex/body/race/time/situation. He does it by becoming more aware and concious, more responisible for his life and role as a creator.....etc etc etc...

2. Sumerian sources: Human was created by a race of "seen as Gods" Annunaki (that had longer life and more abilities) for purpose of being eternal "stupid" slave in their gold mines and plantations ("Garden of Eden"), without ability to procreate by himself (so their population is controlled). So those "Gods" were afraid of humans to develop self-procreation or to mix with "gods" to create a longer-living genes as mix of Annunaki and human... This expalain the Tree of Life, Tree of (sexual procreation) Knowledge, the Nephilim who created longer-living giants, and life needed to be shortened...etc.....etc...

3. New Age: See "1. Eastern Religion" + Human race was seeded by Pleadian race 100.000 years ago, by genetic manipulation, addition of "God-genes". The goal of soul is to become a full Creator, a God - creating new universes and worlds.

4. Old Testament: Human was created to eternally work in (naked) + guard (from whom???) a Garden of God, without reaching eternal life or knowlegde or becoming any more Godlike than is needed to do his "dirty" work in the Garden.

5. Christianity/Religion. Human lives only once, created for the purpose of worshipping God (and his Son Jesus Christ)- and only that God (so if you're born in a "wrong country" like India who worship something else in a Village that never heard of Christ - you're screwed for eternal Hell with no second chance). You are created with ability to do "sins", and for them you're punished later by eternal Hell by a Loving God for a purpose....no clear...as there is no next incarnation to fix those things in or prove you learned the lesson. If God let you live longer life (and so you had more time to do sins) - you're screwed. You better die when you're still a pure infant. If God made you be born in a family of hard criminals, drug-dealers, poor people who steal food to live - you're screwed. If God chose you to be born in a good Christian and law-obeying family - you're lucky. Anyway - you'll be judged just the same.

Kabbalah has given the world many sages. And there are other philosophers. And you want to say that there is no freedom of choice?

(Kabbalah is not a religion, it's a Teaching, that's something different, we were talking about religions)
Sure there is. It's a core for any human experience. Gentley mixed with predisposition, as you can't plan an incarnation without such. You know what lesson you want and expect to learn in this particular life, and plan the life accordingly....you can plan the situation, not your choice in it...different choice leads to different next situations. But you do plan/outline your challenges, otherwise incarnatinos would be random with no progress, mix of unlearned lessons.
But freedom of Choice mixed with Judgement - it's what makes a religion.
If I give you two cars to choose to drive - will I punish you for choosing the "wrong" car? Is there "a wrong" car at all? Can "right car" for one be "wrong car" for the other? Same situation can bring different lessons to different people.

doomjedi wrote:Let's compare 5 sources for inner-consistency and logic ..

What does it change?

Try to imagine the period before you were born, then you know what death is like.

ronwolf1705 wrote:Try to imagine the period before you were born, then you know what death is like.

You mean "remember", right? .....oh, an atheist, how nice

Well, I can help you "imagine" the period before you died
Try it yourself

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3751922/02.Brian.Weiss.-.Regression.to.Times.%26.Places.mp3

Very much an atheist indeed.

I think God or Gods can be analyzed from multiple perspectives:

-Gods as explanation: often done by older cultures to explain elements they didn't understand like the wind, rain etc. Often multiple gods at a time for each element. More recently there was God as an explanation for evolution or Intelligent Design.
-God as a way to control people (or in latter years, Gods from other religions or (followers of) other religions themselves as enemies)
-God as a moral code
-God as measurement for pain: people who feel unsure (economic crisis, war) about their future tend to turn towards God sooner for help, comfort. Same with people who suffer from anxiety/depression/loneliness, they tend to turn to God for a sense of comformity, because they need something to hold on to in their life. It has been proven that religious persons suffer less from depression than atheists, I guess because they don't worry (or worry less) about the uncertainties of death.

All in all, I don't think God created men but men created God. And people underestimate the influence of evolution, sheer luck and chance in the creation of us.

Akuul wrote:What does it change?

I just wanted to show that:

1. You take reincarnation out of any spiritual teaching, and you can never build a consistent concept of why we are here (and even of God's concept). Christianity (not Christ himself, but as a religion) is a perfect example. The price - is obvious unconsistency, contradictions, humanization of God, embedded dualism and lack of critical thinking. But no reincarnation

Yet if you brainwash/scare people enouph to shut down their critical thinking (being an enemy of any mass religion) - those obvious contraditions become non-evident, and you are left with Global mass-controlling tool of alot of Power.

There are so many religions in the world...and the only common ground for all - is lack of critical thinking, named as "Faith".

2. If you look at the Old Testament without it's Sumerian context - you have a very weird and contradicting depiction of human origins, purpose, depiction of God etc (even by the language used)....And if you do look at the context - both original meaning and later distortions become more evident.
For example Adam - God himself told him to procreate and "fill the land and conqier it" (was Adam allowed to go out of Garden of Eden to fill the land or was Eden all of the land, all of Earth?). Despite such a direct order, and despite the fact that not eating from the Tree of Life - he was obviously destined to die (where do you go when you die in Eden?) - he didn't procreate (somehow God didn't mind and seem to prefer that), and before eating from "Tree of Knowledge" (that for some reason is shown in KnowLedge resulting of being ashamed of their private parts) wasn't much aware of his private parts and their purpose (and if he did before - why to be ashamed now?...if he was meant to procreate anyway). Only after being kicked out from Garden of Eden, after the "Knowledge" - he suddenly started procreating.....I can go on and on and on....why is God plural, why is he looking for Adam, why does he keep "Snake" in the Garden, how didn't he hear what "Snake" said to them and/or stop Eva in real time - if he so didn't want Eva and Adam to eat the "fruit" (something he cannot later undo)...on and on and on and on.........why he put sleep on Adam during the operation - couldn't he just do it without the pain? Isn't he God? There is nothing in this story the depict God the way we "know" him. Why did he put those trees there in the first place and couldn't he protect them by a forcefeild or make them invisible? etc...etc....etc........Why Adam was so ashamed to meet God (and God needed to make them clothes) if Adam/Eve already put their "underwear" on?.........

That's what I mean "critical thinking"

3. Out of all the known concepts of God, human purpose and afterlife - "religional" version is the less consistent.

-Gods as explanation: often done by older cultures to explain elements they didn't understand like the wind, rain etc. Often multiple gods at a time for each element. More recently there was God as an explanation for evolution or Intelligent Design.

Oh, maaan, brings me back many years in time.... I remember "buying" that explanation

-God as a way to control people (or in latter years, Gods from other religions or (followers of) other religions themselves as enemies)

+1

-God as a moral code

Moral code is intuitive, it needs no God.
Really....40 years in the desert to get the "spoiler" of "shall not kill, shall not steal...."

God is the opposite of Morals and Moral code - Religion is based in "forget what you think is moral, your own morals - do what God (and all his "speakers") says without question, even if that's to kill someione with rocks for just not following the Sabbath."
Moreso - it changes between cultures, times.
Moreso - there are no true morals that are not based on personal responsibility. If you say "I did this because God said", then it's not morals, it's blind obedience........

-God as measurement for pain: people who feel unsure (economic crisis, war) about their future tend to turn towards God sooner for help, comfort. Same with people who suffer from anxiety/depression/loneliness, they tend to turn to God for a sense of comformity, because they need something to hold on to in their life. It has been proven that religious persons suffer less from depression than atheists, I guess because they don't worry (or worry less) about the uncertainties of death.

+1

All in all, I don't think God created men but men created God

+1.

doomjedi wrote:

Akuul wrote:What does it change?

I just wanted to show that..

Are you interested in all the questions?
All right.
Try to answer the ONE question
This is "my" avatar..
.

.
..But this image of the past.
To whom it belonged?



And if you do not know the answer to this question is then what can we say about God?

doomjedi wrote:

-God as a moral code

Moral code is intuitive, it needs no God.
Really....40 years in the desert to get the "spoiler" of "shall not kill, shall not steal...."

God is the opposite of Morals and Moral code - Religion is based in "forget what you think is moral, your own morals - do what God (and all his "speakers") says without question, even if that's to kill someione with rocks for just not following the Sabbath."

Yes, but you're still adopting a moral code then. Being good as a way to get into heaven and all the other 'morals'. It's counter intuitive, but still a moral code of sorts.

Akuul wrote:
..But this image of the past.
To whom it belonged?

Oh, Riddles I love riddles

And if you do not know the answer to this question is then what can we say about God?

Bible seem to say alot of things about God. Why God made people, what he wants from us, what he loves, what he hates...
God seem to have alot of "speakers" and "interpreters".
I'm on the other hand never claimed such knowledge, out of awareness of my own perception limitations as human being. We can only imaging things we've seen, or a mix of different elements we've seen.

I could just say what he is NOT. "Bible God" is one example. You don't have to be a braniac to notice that, basic critical thinking.

When you believe some version of God - you are stuck with that version, so you can not know God. To know God you need to forget all you've been told about him. And you have to stop giving him human attribues. Whatever he is - he is very non-Human.
So our morals - is our morals....not his.

doomjedi wrote:

Akuul wrote:
..But this image of the past. To whom it belonged?

Oh, Riddles I love riddles

This is good.
And you can offer versions ..
Although the exact answer is welcome

Akuul wrote:
And you can offer versions ..

Originally I went to google to check for Masons, Illuminati, Templar Knights, WingMakers, even Sheakspeare (for the theatralic mask)
But with no success so far

I guess the missing eye and two piramids connected are the more important links.

doomjedi wrote:

Akuul wrote:
And you can offer versions ..

Originally I went to google to check for Masons, Illuminati, Templar Knights, WingMakers, even Sheakspeare (for the theatralic mask) But with no success so far

It is logical but .. it was a false path

doomjedi wrote:I guess the missing eye and two piramids connected are the more important links.

Two piramids? Image quality is average .. So I'll show you - it is an hourglass.

doomjedi wrote:Oh, Riddles I love riddles

The second clue ..
.

Atlantis

doomjedi wrote:Atlantis

Prompt third clue - Sea .. Black flag .. Picture on the flag..
For example..
.

.
This flag Bartholomew Roberts (1682 – 1722)...

doomjedi tell me the name of the captain who raised this flag
.

Noone...it's a custom made (in 2007) by ChrisV82, probably inspired by Walter Kennedy's flag.

Spoiler:

There's a website with information about pirate flags, which I've enjoyed looking at, so much so that it inspired me to design my own pirate flag:



Oh, how I wish I could command a pirate ship and lead my bloodthirsty crew, looting ships and villages, taking gold, women and antique books, and drinking like a sailor...because we would be sailors. Pirate sailors. With swords.

doomjedi

The truth is simple.
And as you need tips about God?
.
I think - people will get all the answers after death.
But while the person is alive is better to think about life.

Akuul wrote:
I think - people will get all the answers after death.

Some will and some won't. To get answers you got to be of sertain awareness level.
But this is not the important thing.
It's not the answer that is important. We don't even know if there is one absolute truth (or is "reality" a subjective experience or just a creation of our mind). Truth develops with us, and we don't know if there is any limit to development...and so for the truth.
It's looking for the truth that helps our development, it's dealing with personal truth and with other truths, with people who believe different from you - how you see this, how you treat this and them, how you try to impose your truth on others or not...See truth as a process and not as a have it/have it not.
It's about not to get stuck with a "simplifying" dogma or "fake truth" that will stop you from further grouth.

It's when people choose to follow some extensive religious rituals, weird gurus....that take much of our mind, awareness, time and money - just for the mere chance that their truth will somehow be discovered after death is the one true truth our of 1000s truths on Earth...it's when things become weird.

Takes nothing to believe in God...takes alot to follow all the demands people demanded by his Name.

But while the person is alive is better to think about life.

Yep, we came here not to get back there (which we ultimately will anyway), but to live here and now.
But still, believe in afterlife changes your human experiences and makes them more profound. Also is alters your priorities and attitude.

doomjedi

Please tell me - you have a girlfriend and when will the wedding?
Another question - you visited all the historical sites of Israel?
The third question - what do you tell if third question will not be?

Akuul wrote:
Please tell me - you have a girlfriend and when will the wedding?

"No" and "obviously don't know"

Another question - you visited all the historical sites of Israel?

Well, alot of them. Probably not all of them. There are alot of those here...this is a land of alot of history.

doomjedi wrote:

Akuul wrote:
Please tell me - you have a girlfriend and when will the wedding?

"No" and "obviously don't know"

A wedding is a lot of fun. Family is good. But best of all the poet said..
.
Easy, he gently placed on the sidewalk -
The pavement takes off at high speed.
He sits on the ground -
Takes off the ground.
He hopes to rest only on the tops of their children,
He waits patiently for them
.
This is Paul Eluard.
Translation of a quick (not very good) but I hope I have conveyed the meaning.

doomjedi wrote:Well, alot of them. Probably not all of them. There are alot of those here...this is a land of alot of history.

Is this true?

Akuul wrote:
A wedding is a lot of fun.

Well, like a last smoke before the execution...it's fun

Is this true?

Is what true?

doomjedi wrote:Well, like a last smoke before the execution...it's fun

It's funny, and seriously at the same time.
Family is the beginning of everything - a tree, a house, a child (is a saying)
The family may help to know God .. if possible.

doomjedi wrote:

Akuul wrote:Is this true?

Is what true?

Better talk - and this is true?

For example, the truth is that the FPS 1990 - 2000 was the Golden Age of games in this genre.
Silver Age can be called the period 2001 - 2003
The last good game for the First Person Shooter" -> Far Cry (2004)
Since 2004, there was nothing original.
.
terms - "Golden Age", "Silver Age" - are taken from the history of comics
.
But how much IMHO in my words about computer games in the genre FPS?
IMHO a lot or a little in the conversations about the family?
And how much can be counted IMHO in new-philosophies about God?

Akuul wrote:
Family is the beginning of everything - a tree, a house, a child (is a saying)

I thought love is, love creates But actually if we'll look backwards - there is no beginning for those and in some angle of view family is actually an end of chain of events that start at your birth, or even much beforehand....your birth, later social brainwash...
Religious groups (including in Israel) use early marriage to keep control of young people, as a family man is easier to control and brainswash, also he can't leave the
community having so many children and he needs alot of community services for the kids and depends of them, also he can't support so many kids and depends on community financial help.... it's a tool of control and manipulation and world domination by population, as early married man can bring more kids in his life. So he is not more than kids generator.
Family man is more busy and so can't see the world much or travel or think for his own, independably....

The family may help to know God .. if possible.

Family is not a human invention, animals have this too, and it doesn't bring you closer to God than any other human experience. What brings you closer to God is the level of awareness....and this animalistic "born --> procreate --> die" concept doesn't add too much awareness in most cases.
Our human concept of a family is definetely human invention, and is unperfect as any human concepts....and it already fails and doesn't work in the modern world...where man and women are equal and more independent, have more options and bigger selections and choices.

But how much IMHO in my words about computer games in the genre FPS?
IMHO a lot or a little in the conversations about the family?
And how much can be counted IMHO in new-philosophies about God?

You talk like Yoda, man....
I'm not sure you even know what IMHO is.

doomjedi wrote:..Religious groups .. use early marriage to keep control of young people, as a family man is easier to control and brainswash, also he can't leave the community having so many children and he needs alot of community services for the kids and depends of them, also he can't support so many kids and depends on community financial help.... it's a tool of control and manipulation and world domination by population, as early married man can bring more kids in his life. So he is not more than kids generator. Family man is more busy and so can't see the world much or travel or think for his own, independably...

What happens if delete the words "Religious groups"?
.
I think you should try to look at life more optimistic.
Do not think about conspiracies, about total control, etc.
If you think about it then nothing good will come.

Ok, thank you I'll keep that in mind

doomjedi wrote:..Family is not a human invention, animals have this too, and it doesn't bring you closer to God than any other human experience. What brings you closer to God is the level of awareness....and this animalistic "born --> procreate --> die" concept doesn't add too much awareness in most cases.
Our human concept of a family is definetely human invention, and is unperfect as any human concepts....and it already fails and doesn't work in the modern world...where man and women are equal and more independent, have more options and bigger selections and choices.

Have I mentioned that the family something unique?
The family is the landscape - mountains, forest, desert, sea, etc.
Landscape is a life and death. This is remains now, and always will be. If you do not agree .. Answer the question - what distinguishes modern man from a man who lived in the middle ages? Mobile phone, the police, washing powder, machine ... Sword, a horse and carriage, knights .. It's the difference?

doomjedi wrote:..You talk like Yoda, man..

I think that the saga "Star Wars" is dedicated to the victory of the Sith.
By the way "Star Wars" also tells the story about family.

doomjedi wrote:..I'm not sure you even know what IMHO is.

IMHO -> In My Humble Opinion
.

Akuul wrote:
The family is the landscape - mountains, forest, desert, sea, etc.

You probably meant Nature

This is remains now, and always will be

Everything is changing...and evolving...Earth, humans...even rocks. This is a law.
Nothing will be the way it is forever.

Answer the question - what distinguishes modern man from a man who lived in the Middle Ages?

You seem to talk about human nature. What is human nature? We all have at least 7 main chakras....each chakra is like a person/voice with different "language", approach, character, world view... and each of one is a unique combination of those "voices", and each is evolving in it's own pattern and pace... so what is Human Nature? Which human is the "human nature"? Not only singular human is evolving - all humanity is an evolving organism (connected to Earth which is another evolving system), and it's progress can be measured by average level of concioness, awareness, and responsibility for their own actions and for the world well-being.
We always had primitive men and enlightened ones living on Earth. And those have clearly evolved and there are more people using more chakras and more of their DNA potential.
First 3 chakras are animalistic chakras...so it's not human nature to live just one them - it's animal nature. So to think of just survival, s-e-x and control/power is acting like an animal, like an ape.
Human Nature can be defined as using at least 4 first chakras. Human is 4th dimension - 4th chakra - Heart Chakra.

You can clearly see human progress by looking at the "Old Testament" vs. "New Testament"....or "New Testament" vs. a book like "Conversations with God"....we are clearly evolving and went a long way.

Mobile phone, the police, washing powder, machine ... Sword, a horse and carriage, knights .. It's the difference?

No, technology is a result of such evolution, not a reason. Where technology goes way ahead of spiritual progress - that civilization becomes self-destructable, like many time before. So us to sustain such level of technology and "power" without self-destructing - is one of the measures of our spititual progress - and it's clear.
USA had a few bombs and hurried to use them on Japan....now much more countries have much more powerful bombs - and yet no massive wars.
Now imagine Hitler or Stalin to have such bombs.

doomjedi wrote:..You talk like Yoda, man..

I think that the saga "Star Wars" is dedicated to the victory of the Sith.

Well, not too much victory at the end