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    Freedom of Speech

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    Joshua
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    Freedom of Speech

    Post by Joshua on Sat May 30, 2015 7:13 am

    I believe that people have a right to say anything they  want to about Christianity within United States laws. I am glad that I am a peaceful Christian. Peaceful Christians do not resort to violence like extremist groups do. Extremist groups include ISIS, the Muslim Brotherhood, and the Nazis.

    Back during World War II, the Nazis and radical Islam were working together. Hitler was not a Christian. Hitler and Himmler were cult leaders. They were no different than the cult leader who kidnapped Elizabeth Smart. Both were equally as bad. Both also were not Christians.

    As a libertarian and American first, I believe that freedom of speech is important in the USA and it should be preserved. Martin Luther King displayed freedom of speech during his peaceful marches. The racists who were against him and wanted him dead were just as bad as the Nazis, ISIS, and the Muslim Brotherhood.

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    Re: Freedom of Speech

    Post by Dark_wizzie on Mon Jun 01, 2015 4:07 pm

    Ok.
    Is there a debate topic, a question, or is this thread just a statement?



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    Joshua
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    Re: Freedom of Speech

    Post by Joshua on Tue Jun 02, 2015 7:15 pm

    I was just making a statement. What is your opinion on my comments in the thread? Do you agree with them or do not agree with them?

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    Please organize your thoughts

    Post by stathmk on Thu Jun 04, 2015 2:06 pm

    jpb1991 wrote:...Back during World War II, the Nazis and radical Islam were working together. ...
    I'm not sure I know what you're talking about.  Hitler went to dinner with somebody, drew an artistic picture of what was an Arab skull (Or his misunderstanding of how it's different) and said that Arabs are an inferior race.  I don't want to explain why I also think that the Nazis planned to send troops to invade what is now Saudi Arabia.

    You are doing at least one logic fallacy.  Saying that we should be Christians because Hitler and Himmler weren’t Christians is like saying that we should be Buddhists because Hitler and Himmler weren’t Buddhists.  Or like any other religion.  It’s like you have an agenda.  I don’t know whether the best choice of words for this logic fallacy is “jumping to conclusions,” “argument from ignorance,” or “special pleading.”  An argument from ignorance would be, “If two plus two doesn’t equal three, and two plus two doesn’t equal five, then two plus two must equal thirty-seven.”  How would you like it if somebody said, “Oh, Hitler and Himmler weren’t Muslims, so we should be Muslims?”  How would you like it if somebody said, “Oh, Hitler and Himmler weren’t Hindus, so we should be Hindus?”
     
    Yesterday, I had typed up a longer response about politics, religion, and the middle east in Microsoft Word that I would have posted for you, but I’ve changed my mind about posting it.
     
    I think that the other Wolfers are tired of us typing about topics other than Wolfenstein.  People are going to misinterpret you as typing to get a reaction.  Your thoughts don’t seem to be appropriately organized or the most tactful.
     
    In my opinion, most of the guys on the wolf forums seem to be older than you and it’s harder to get older people to change their opinions about politics or religion.
     
    From now on, when I see you post about politics or religion, I’m less likely to be interested in responding.

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    Re: Freedom of Speech

    Post by Joshua on Thu Jun 04, 2015 10:22 pm

    Matt, I was not trying to convert anyone by stating a fact that Hitler was not Christian. Even the History Channel suggests that he was not a Christian. On the channel, they were talking about Muslims and Nazis working together.

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    Re: Freedom of Speech

    Post by rgamesinc on Sat Jun 06, 2015 11:43 pm

    Historically speaking, Hitler is most commonly noted as having been an angry protestant Christian.  However, he has a lot of history with the Catholic church.  In his youth and teenage years he was a Catholic (having been baptized at age 15).  It was shown that he had also performed some Catholic rituals later in life.  He fell out with the idea of the church, however, as he thought that it divided power away from what should be a strong, nationalist state where the only organization is for the furtherance of the state's strength.

    However, he ended up advocating the Christian church (minus anything having to do with the Old Testament) after they went to war with Russia.  He sought to promote "Positive Christianity" and even went as far as to say that Christian Churches were the foundation of German morality.  Hitler permitted some of his anti-theist comrades to surpress the power that Churches had over communities within Germany, but still the majority of German Nazis (as well as 95% of the German population) remained either Catholic or mainline Protestant.

    Hitler is also quoted in Mein Kampf as having admired Jesus's actions: "And the founder of Christianity made no secret indeed of his estimation of the Jewish people. When He found it necessary, He drove those enemies of the human race out of the Temple of God."

    The only time that Hitler had ever referred to Islam with any real esteem was when he had once mentioned to Albert Speer that he thought that the devotion of the followers to kill themselves for their state was more admirable than the "meekness" and "flabbiness" of Christianity.  He still, however, hated the Muslims and would exterminate them when given the chance.  He had at one point teased an alliance with Islamic states and the Muslim Brotherhood, but ended up pulling out of this alliance out of fear that it would damage relations with Britain at the time.  He noted that Arabs were an inferior race, and the the only thing that he really had in common with them was their antisemitic views.  He had also noted, at one time, that if Islam had conquered Europe in 732 then a Muslim Germany would become the rulers of the continent.


    Ultimately, the Muslims in the Middle East and Europe tried to spread Hitler's Nazi message for him, but Hitler was very likely to have exterminated them once his conquest through Europe was finished.

    Goebbels noted many times that Hitler was extremely religious, but completely against the Christian Church, which Hitler would rant was a strain on mankind's power.  Eventually, Hitler had adopted many characteristics of Christianity to create his own Church for Nazi Germany which starred an Aryan Christ.

    Hitler was not an Atheist for sure.  He had an eye on crushing Atheist movements, which he saw as a push for Communism from his foes in Russia.  He also saw Atheism as a part of Jewish materialism.

    The most commonly agreed upon account of Hitler was that while he identified as Protestant to the public, he was mostly a deist.
    --------------------------------------



    Breaking away from the topic of Hitler, I do appreciate that we now live in a time where people can speak out against Christians and not be killed.  It was not always this way.  Christians have a storied past of unspeakable atrocities and radical killings.  For example:



    Spanish Inquisition: 3,000-5,000 people killed.
    Spanish Inquisitor Torquemada: Alone, allegedly responsible for over 10,000 burnings.
    1568 Spanish Inquisition Tribunal: Ordered to slaughter 3,000,000 rebels in Netherlands: thousands were actually killed.
    Crusades: 1,000,000-3,000,000 people killed.
    Charlemagne: Beheaded 4,500 Saxons unwilling to convert to Christianity.

    Battle of Belgrad: 80,000 Turks slaughtered by Christian forces.
    Hypatia of Alexandria: World famous female philosopher ripped to pieces by a Christian mob led by a Christian minister named Peter.
    All 6th Century Pagans in Europe: Their rights removed.  All of them.
    Year 356: Pagan services becomes punishable by death.
    Albigensians: Saw themselves as good Christians but would not bow to The Catholic Church, their country (which is now France) was destroyed on the demand of Pope Innocent III.  Single greatest Pre-Nazi slaughter of all time, all inhabitants were slaughtered.  20,000-70,000 dead.

    Witch Burnings (1484-1750): Estimated to be in the hundreds of thousands.
    17th century 30 years' war (Catholic vs. Protestant): at least 40% of population decimated, mostly in Germany.
    Already in the 4th and 5th centuries synagogues were burned by Christians. Number of Jews slain unknown.
    Council of Toledo 694: Jews were enslaved, their property confiscated, and their children forcibly baptized.
    1290 in Bohemian (Poland) allegedly 10,000 Jews killed.
    1348 All Jews of Basel/Switzerland and Strasbourg/France (two thousand) burned. 
    1349 In more than 350 towns in Germany all Jews murdered, mostly burned alive (in this one year more Jews were killed than Christians in 200 years of ancient Roman persecution of Christians)

    1389 In Prague 3,000 Jews were slaughtered.
    1391 Seville's Jews killed (Archbishop Martinez leading). 4,000 were slain, 25,000 sold as slaves. Their identification was made easy by the brightly colored "badges of shame" that all jews above the age of ten had been forced to wear.
    1648 Chmielnitzki massacres: In Poland about 200,000 Jews were slain. 
    In the year Columbus set sail to conquer a New World: more than 150,000 Jews were expelled from Spain, many died on their way: 6/30/1492.
    On Hispaniola alone, on Columbus visits, the native population (Arawak), a rather harmless and happy people living on an island of abundant natural resources, a literal paradise, soon mourned 50,000 dead. The surviving Indians fell victim to rape, murder, enslavement and Spanish raids.
    Cortez, Pizarro, De Soto and hundreds of other spanish conquistadors likewise sacked southern and mesoamerican civilizations in the name of Christ (De Soto also sacked Florida). "When the 16th century ended, some 200,000 Spaniards had moved to the Americas. By that time probably more than 60,000,000 natives were dead."
    Between 300,000 and 600,000 exterminated in Croatian Catholic Extermination Camps coinciding with the Holocaust in Germany.

    As you can see, not all Christian deeds throughout history were hugs and sunshine- indeed, they've slaughtered far more people than the Nazis ever got their hands on.  If we were to compare to, say, Islam, we have the following numbers:



    113.8 million killed in Christian wars compared to the 16.4 million who died in Muslim wars.



    Christians have killed eight times more people in democides than Muslims: 76.5 million compared to 9.3 million. Almost the same rate as for war.

    The comparison rates that I just quoted can be found [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

    Anyway, that is of course speaking historically.  There are many peaceful Christians today, many peaceful Muslims, peaceful Atheists, peaceful Hindus, peaceful Jews, peaceful Wiccans, peaceful Shintoists... all sorts of great stuff.

    rgamesinc
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    Re: Freedom of Speech

    Post by rgamesinc on Sat Jun 06, 2015 11:44 pm

    Whoops, I meant to post that as my current account as Dunkelschwamm.  Oh well.

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    Re: Freedom of Speech

    Post by Guest on Sun Jun 07, 2015 8:03 am

    Sometimes I truly have to question whether some of you know the difference between people who ARE Christians and those who CALL themselves Christian or even what it means to be a Christian. 

    Please afford me an example…

    When the Spaniards crossed the Atlantic and attempted to ‘convert’ the natives at the end of a sword there were countless deaths (60 million?  I have never heard or read that figure before – thx for the info).  I will never dispute that there was a tremendous loss of native lives and that it should never have happened.  This is not how Christians are called to witness (1 Peter 3:15 will give you a taste of what I mean).  I don’t have the right to look into another man’s heart, but if Christ calls us to use love and respect to witness and then these men uses swords and violence are they truly doing Christ’s work?  Somebody might have to explain that to me if they are because I am just not seeing it.

    The Church at times throughout history has been used as a vehicle for greed and power – I will not argue that.  What I will argue is that every time the Church has been misused (forgive the horrid understatement) it was for man’s gain and not to promote God’s will.  I fail to see the point in blaming Christ for man’s evil ways.  Just my opinion

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    Re: Freedom of Speech

    Post by Thomas on Sun Jun 07, 2015 9:17 am

    Agreed. I don't mind religion as a whole, Jesus Christ as a savior etc... But I do mind certain people's interpretations, which seem to be the main root of the problem with this particular issue. This applies to all religions - not just Christianity.

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    Re: Freedom of Speech

    Post by dunkelschwamm on Sun Jun 07, 2015 7:07 pm

    Yes, unfortunately many people tend to use their religion as a way to consolidate their own power.  It's very easy to do, as well, especially given the contradictory nature of many religious texts.

    For example, many parts of the Christian bible indeed call for the slaughtering of heretics:

    From Exodus 22:
    You shall not permit a female sorcerer to live.
    Whoever sacrifices to any god, other than the LORD alone, shall be devoted to destruction.

    From Numbers 25:
    2 These invited the people to the sacrifices of their gods, and the people ate and bowed down to their gods. 3 Thus Israel yoked itself to the Baal of Peor, and the LORD’s anger was kindled agai nst Israel. 4 The LORD said to Moses, “Take all the chiefs of the people, and impale them in the sun before the LORD, in order that the fierce anger of the LORD may turn away from Israel.” 5 And Moses said to the judges of Israel, “Each of you shall kill any of your people who have yoked themselves to the Baal of Peor.” 6 Just then one of the Israelites came and brought a Midianite woman into his family, in the sight of Moses and in the sight of the whole congregation of the Israelites, while they were weeping at the entrance of the tent of meeting. 7 When Phinehas son of Eleazar, son of Aaron the priest, saw it, he got up and left the congregation. Taking a spear in his hand, 8 he went after the Israelite man into the tent, and pierced the two of them, the Israelite and the woman, through the belly. 

    From Deuteronomy 13:
    If prophets or those who divine by dreams appear among you and promise you omens or portents, 2 and the omens or the portents declared by them take place, and they say, “Let us follow other gods” (whom you have not known) “and let us serve them,” 3 you must not heed the words of those prophets or those who divine by dreams; for the LORD your God is testing you, to know whether you indeed love the LORD your God with all your heart and soul. 4 The LORD your God you shall follow, him alone you shall fear, his commandments you shall keep, his voice you shall obey, him you shall serve, and to him you shall hold fast. 5 But those prophets or those who divine by dreams shall be put to death for having spoken treason against the LORD your God—who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the house of slavery—to turn you from the way in which the LORD your God commanded you to walk. So you shall purge the evil from your midst. 6 If anyone secretly entices you—even if it is your brother, your father’s son orb your mother’s son, or your own son or daughter, or the wife you embrace, or your most intimate friend—saying, “Let us go worship other gods,” whom neither you nor your ancestors have known, 7 any of the gods of the peoples that are around you, whether near you or far away from you, from one end of the earth to the other, 8 you must not yield to or heed any such persons. Show them no pity or compassion and do not shield them. 9 But you shall surely kill them; your own hand shall be first against them to execute them, and afterwards the hand of all the people. 10 Stone them to death for trying to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. 11 Then all Israel shall hear and be afraid, and never again do any such wickedness. 12 If you hear it said about one of the towns that the LORD your God is giving you to live in, 13 that scoundrels from among you have gone out and led the inhabitants of the town astray, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods,” whom you have not known, 14 then you shall inquire and make a thorough investigation. If the charge is established that such an abhorrent thing has been done among you, 15 you shall put the inhabitants of that town to the sword, utterly destroying it and everything in it—even putting its livestock to the sword

    From Deuteronomy 17:
    2 If there is found among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, a man or woman who does what is evil in the sight of the LORD your God, and transgresses his covenant 3 by going to serve other gods and worshiping them—whether the sun or the moon or any of the host of heaven, which I have forbidden— 4 and if it is reported to you or you hear of it, and you make a thorough inquiry, and the charge is proved true that such an abhorrent thing has occurred in Israel, 5 then you shall bring out to your gates that man or that woman who has committed this crime and you shall stone the man or woman to death. 20 But any prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, or who presumes to speak in my name a word that I have not commanded the prophet to speak—that prophet shall die.” 
    It's very clear that at least some sections of The Bible demand the slaughtering of those with differing beliefs just as The Quran did.  Both books included instructions to act peacefully with your fellow human and to love one another as well.

    Religious texts do not give moral guidance because moral guidance can't be so contradictory unless morals are ultimately compromisable (which would thus make morals a vapor- undiscernable from any kind of pointless nonsense.)

    That said, many people do mine some nice quotes from the Bible that help them cling to a better way of living.  So that is certainly a good thing that I would never wish to disrupt.  People should just also be wary of the poisonous seeds nestled between the pages that have ultimatEly resulted in over one hundred million deaths.

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    Re: Freedom of Speech

    Post by Joshua on Sun Jun 07, 2015 10:20 pm

    Christians are no longer under Old Testament law. Jesus would not condone killing people who peacefully worship other little g gods. Radical Islam does though. Jesus gave people free will. ISIS is not for free will. I believe in hating the sin and loving the sinner.

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    Re: Freedom of Speech

    Post by dunkelschwamm on Mon Jun 08, 2015 9:24 am

    Again, the Christian bible is contradictory enough that many can argue that Jesus demands we live by Old Testament rules:


    “For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished.  Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”  (Matthew 5:18-19 RSV) 



    "It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid."  (Luke 16:17 NAB)



    "Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets.  I have come not to abolish but to fulfill.  Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place."  (Matthew 5:17 NAB)



    "All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness..."  (2 Timothy 3:16 NAB)



    "Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God." (2 Peter 20-21 NAB)



    "Whoever curses father or mother shall die"  (Mark 7:10 NAB)



    “He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.”  (Matthew 15:4-7)



    “Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law"(John7:19) and “For the law was given by Moses,..." (John 1:17)



    “...the scripture cannot be broken.”--Jesus Christ, John 10:35



    Again, there are plenty of parts of the bible that do indeed promote peaceful discourse, but it does not take very much searching to find parts that will excuse multiple atrocities- and it really can not be said that Jesus told us to forget about the laws in The Old Testament.  He is quoted multiple times in saying that is God's word that can not be broken.

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    Re: Freedom of Speech

    Post by Dark_wizzie on Mon Jun 08, 2015 11:00 am

    It feels like nowadays when I am listening to any rational conversation between two people, it's already a given that neither of them are religious. Irrationality bothers me. But this conversation is also mostly a waste of time.

    Oh boy Stathmk, what are we going to do to drum up traffic on this site?



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    Re: Freedom of Speech

    Post by dunkelschwamm on Mon Jun 08, 2015 12:47 pm

    Between a group of people whose interest it is to find out where the ill intent of men who have slain millions can be shown to have been supported by what is seen by many as a doctrine of peace- a conversation such as this can only help to bring more understanding of the world: truth.  For me, personally, such a pursuit is never a waste of time.

    As for whether or not I am religious, I assure you you will never know.

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    I finally remember Godwin's Law.

    Post by stathmk on Wed Oct 05, 2016 5:03 pm

    This is about the same place where I asked, "What is the name of psychological trait where somebody compares somebody else to Hitler in an argument?"

    It’s Godwin’s Law or a paraphrase of it.  The paraphrase of Godwin’s Law that I had heard on the radio was, “Once you compare somebody to Hitler, then you lose the rest of the argument.”  This sounds like the first paragraph under “Corollaries and usage” at [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] .

    I can think of a few serious exceptions.  Stalin, Mao Tse Dong, & Genghis Khan killed more people than Hitler did.  Genghis Khan: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

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    Re: Freedom of Speech

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