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    Your favorite pre-Quake engine first person shooters

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    Total Votes: 68

    WolfForever
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    Your favorite pre-Quake engine first person shooters

    Post by WolfForever on Fri Feb 01, 2013 9:39 pm

    Basically what the thread title says. I tried to list all the ones I know of. I grouped together games that are very similar (same engine, same relative setting, same overall gameplay, and same developer). Wolfenstein/the original SoD, both Blake Stones, all the DooM stuff, and Descent I/II are such cases.

    I picked the Quake engine because it's the first engine that was TRUELY a full 3-D engine in all aspects. A few of the games were released after Quake, but they still used an older engine (every game in the list is technically known as a 2.5-D engine game).

    Note that if I didn't like a sequel (for example, I include only the first Dark Forces and Hexen), that is because the sequel runs off a different engine that doesn't predate Quake. So don't vote for a game if you're really voting for its sequel and said sequel is not listed!

    I'd say Wolfenstein/SoD, everything Classic DooM, and Duke Nukem 3D are the most popular three titles easily, but that doesn't mean other ones can't be one of your favorites. After all that's why I listed every title I knew!

    I'd say ideally select between a top two and top five depending primarily on how many of them you have played or at least spent some time with. And of course, feel free to comment to whatever extent you'd like. Smile

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    Re: Your favorite pre-Quake engine first person shooters

    Post by Dark_wizzie on Fri Feb 01, 2013 9:47 pm

    Wolf3d and Sod... I didn't play all the others on the list but Doom. Doom was decent.



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    Re: Your favorite pre-Quake engine first person shooters

    Post by doomjedi on Sat Feb 02, 2013 1:39 am

    There are so much you didn't mention....

    "Rise of the Triad", "In Purcuit Of Greed", "Daggerfall", "Catacombs 3D", "Nightmare 3D", all the other build engine games ("Witchaven 1/2", "Redneck Rampage", "PowerSlave" etc.......) and quite some others...

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    Re: Your favorite pre-Quake engine first person shooters

    Post by Guest on Sat Feb 02, 2013 4:31 am

    Choosing five is tough. I picked Wolf/SoD, Blake Stone, Doom, Outlaws and other. The other being Redneck Rampage. While I have modded other games, Redneck Rampage is the one game using the Build engine for which I have made extensive maps. Whiskey and moon pies just makes that game fun and don't get me started me on chicken dynamite (I'm a sick bastard). Back in the day, Majik Monkee and I discussed at length doing a mod solely based on Outlaws (much like HoS was based on Blood), but it never came to light. My memory is severely damaged, but I think I must have made actual Outlaw maps too as I see I installed the editor package on this PC. The game is a little hokey, but I like it Smile

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    Re: Your favorite pre-Quake engine first person shooters

    Post by Thomas on Sat Feb 02, 2013 8:24 am

    Wolf, Blake, Doom, Hexen and Shadow Warrior. Haven't played much of these except for Wolf, but remember enjoying the hell out of a Blake Stone demo I really sucked at playing, Doom was something I've played on and off and know slightly better, Hexen had lots of things going on as I remember it (the medieval feel was pretty successful here) and Shadow Warrior had so many cool features. Always wanted to do a Wolf send-up of this, using Shadow Warrior as a base.

    WolfForever
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    Re: Your favorite pre-Quake engine first person shooters

    Post by WolfForever on Sat Feb 02, 2013 8:40 am

    I'll make it public knowledge that my favorite three are Wolfenstein, the DooM games, and Duke Nukem (not necessarily in order). I also picked Blood as a runner up, so I made four picks total. If I had decided to make a fifth pick, it would have been the Descent games. They are a bit under-popular, IMO.

    I actually think Blake Stone is far inferior to DooM. The level design isn't nearly as good/organized, it doesn't have the atmosphere, and the use of secrets is too extreme for my taste. But that's just my opinion, it's no better than anyone else's!

    Note that I haven't played every game on the list, the most important likely being Dark Forces and Outlaws. And Rise of the Triad was a shameful, inexcusable miss. The others aren't as well known and slip the mind easily, but a mod can definitely add any of these if desired. Smile (Please also turn on vote cancelling if you do so though, so people can select the additional options if they apply.)

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    Re: Your favorite pre-Quake engine first person shooters

    Post by ronwolf1705 on Sat Feb 02, 2013 9:12 am

    Wolf3D, Star Wars and Duke Nukem 3D.




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    Re: Your favorite pre-Quake engine first person shooters

    Post by doomjedi on Sat Feb 02, 2013 10:00 am

    Yeah, forgot "Dark Forces"....great game.

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    Re: Your favorite pre-Quake engine first person shooters

    Post by ronwolf1705 on Sat Feb 02, 2013 11:44 am

    And the second one is even better, as a kid definitely one I would play for hours.




    WolfForever
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    Re: Your favorite pre-Quake engine first person shooters

    Post by WolfForever on Sat Feb 02, 2013 12:30 pm

    Second Dark Forces (AKA Jedi Knight) has an engine that post-dates Quake.

    Anyways I thought I'd share my thoughts about all the games in the list:

    Wolfenstein 3D/SoD: Well that's what I'm on these forums for, primarily! These games are so old but just like others, I always find myself coming back to them. Definitely classics.

    Lost Episodes: I am SO glad to know these weren't made by ID not only because that means I can list them separately (for reason of different developers), but also if ID released these I'd be saying WTF?!. Seriously, these should NEVER have been commercial at all.

    Blake Stone series: Played it, they are okay, but despite the fact that they add elements Wolfenstein didn't have, there are so many key elements that made Wolfenstein work so well - the graphics, the level designs, the atmosphere, the story, the setting, and just the overall feel that just aren't replicated here so for me this game fell into mediocrity. It is probably the best Wolfenstein engine game other than the real thing, though. But very, very distant from Wolfenstein/SoD.

    Other Wolf engine games: Haven't played them, though I know none get very good reviews.

    Classic DooM series: Obviously another favorite of mine. It is THE classic among all oldschool FPS games, the biggest staple in the entire oldschool FPS community, and saying it's classic is an understatement. Nuff said.

    Heretic: DooM knockoff, but actually like it, for the medieval atmosphere and the level design. There are extras for it too, but overall I think it's under-appreciated, and under-modded. Seems like most just go to DooM instead.

    Hexen: A lot of people like this, but too much in the way of frustrating puzzle like gameplay for me. Plus even fewer extras than Heretic.

    Strife: Last of the DooM engine games, and again some find appeal in it, this time due to some merging of RPG elements into the mix, but it didn't really strike me as much. And there's even few extras than Hexen, if that's even possible.

    RoTT: Shameful miss from the list, so much so that I'll include it here. It's definitely a game to have a niche for, with multiple reasons behind that, though I feel it gets boring when played for too long at once.

    Dark Forces/Outlaws: Haven't played them, though I'm interested particularly in if Outlaws is something I should go grab (Star Wars frankly doesn't tempt me as much as it should).

    Descent games: Completely different from anything else in the list because there's no gravity and you are flying. Very cool concept IMO, and I like it generally, though the games do have their flaws, including rather buggy engines full of hacks and very convoluted game coding. Still, I feel they never got quite popular enough.

    Duke Nukem 3D: I honestly don't understand why it isn't almost as popular as DooM. Sure it's one of the more popular games in the list but as long as you can take some language, I don't see anything wrong with this game at all. It takes DooM at its heart and builds upon it in multiple ways (and ironically, it's called the Build engine)! Such great humor and jokes, if you can handle them and know they're just jokes and it's just a game. A definite top five from the list for me.

    Shadow Warrior: Haven't played this for a very, very long time but remember enjoying it. Who cares if it makes fun of Asians? It's just a game! Yet somehow popularity and overall ratings pale in comparison to Duke.

    Blood: Scary horror atmosphere and good, tough levels make this another favorite of mine, and another under-popular one as well. I wish it had an engine such as EDuke for it, but sadly it doesn't. Once again seems under-popular, though if you like the game, I've heard there's one really good and really large mod for it called 'Death Wish'. It's on ModDB somewhere; just search.

    Other build engine games: Didn't even know they were Build engine games except Redneck Rampage, which I forgot to include but isn't it just a cheap knockoff anyways? Still, I would have included it if I had thought of it.

    To review an earlier post, I made four picks: Wolfenstein/SoD, DooM series, Duke, and Blood. And like I said, a mod can feel free to add games I didn't include that use a pre-Quake engine if desired. Smile (Though please enable vote canceling if such is done as well so people who wanted to vote for them can add in their votes)

    Valts
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    Re: Your favorite pre-Quake engine first person shooters

    Post by Valts on Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:19 pm

    My choices was Wolf 3d, DOOM I/II and Blood, though I like all DOOM engine and Build engine games ( Duke Nukem 3d, Shadow Warriror, NAM, Powerslave, WWGI, Redneck Rampage). Another favorite shooter game is Realms of Haunting (1996), which is a horror first-person shooter with tons of FMV. - http://www.gog.com/gamecard/realms_of_the_haunting. Star Wars: Dark Forces was great game.

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    Re: Your favorite pre-Quake engine first person shooters

    Post by doomjedi on Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:59 pm


    Games that were built directly on the Build engine.:

    William Shatner's TekWar (1995)
    Witchaven (1995)
    Duke Nukem 3D (1996)
    PowerSlave (Exhumed in Europe) (1996)
    Witchaven II: Blood Vengeance (1996)
    Blood (1997)
    Shadow Warrior (1997)

    Games that were based on the Duke Nukem 3D code:

    Extreme Paintbrawl (1998)
    NAM (1998)
    Redneck Deer Huntin' (1998)
    Redneck Rampage (1997)
    Redneck Rampage Rides Again (1998)
    WWII GI (1999)

    Unreleased Build games:

    Legend of the Seven Paladins (completed but never released, used the Build engine illegally)
    Fate (not completed, only a demo exists)
    Corridor 8: Galactic Wars (not completed, source code available)

    I have a demo of the "Legend of 7 Paladins" in my old shareware CD Smile Can upload if noone did it already in the past Smile
    The same to Tekwar.

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    Re: Your favorite pre-Quake engine first person shooters

    Post by doomjedi on Mon Feb 04, 2013 1:08 am

    @WolfForever wrote:Blake Stone series
    Great source for Wolf3D modding art though Smile

    Heretic: .... and under-modded.
    Well, there are some nice mods...I'm playing these days "Masters of Chaos" - 3 new episodes, grwat and detailed mapping, additional monsters, art from Heretic, Hexen and new art....amazing mod, very challenging even on easy skill. Recommended.
    http://forum.zdoom.org/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=32714

    Hexen: A lot of people like this, but too much in the way of frustrating puzzle like gameplay for me. Plus even fewer extras than Heretic.
    Yes, puzzles are frustrating. But the game is GREAT. Love it...the features, the art, the atmosphere, the plot....melee combat...player classes, powerups....
    There is "Brutal Hexen" - now that's sooo much fun...much advanced melee combat, gore like in "Brutal Doom"...
    http://forum.zdoom.org/viewtopic.php?t=34906

    Strife: Last of the DooM engine games, and again some find appeal in it, this time due to some merging of RPG elements into the mix, but it didn't really strike me as much. And there's even few extras than Hexen, if that's even possible.
    There is "Brutal Strife" BTW...
    http://forum.zdoom.org/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=35071

    Descent games:
    Hated it.
    It's not more of a shooter than "Terminal Velocity" IMHO. And I loved "Terminal Velocity".

    Blood: Scary horror atmosphere and good, tough levels make this another favorite of mine, and another under-popular one as well. I wish it had an engine such as EDuke for it, but sadly it doesn't. Once again seems under-popular, though if you like the game, I've heard there's one really good and really large mod for it called 'Death Wish'. It's on ModDB somewhere; just search.
    Also check out:
    http://forum.zdoom.org/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=27258

    Some weapons don't work well, but damn this is fun!

    WolfForever
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    Re: Your favorite pre-Quake engine first person shooters

    Post by WolfForever on Mon Feb 04, 2013 5:48 pm

    Brief comments/questions:

    Heretic - Master's of Chaos has a lot of levels but I actually think the best stuff are episodes like Curse of D'sparil and Call of the Apostate (CotA was also followed up later with a pretty big single level from the same author). Have you played/liked any of these?

    Hexen - What is the best hub or add-on for it that resists going nuts on puzzles?

    Strife - What do you think of normal levels made for it (rather than hubs)? There are very few, but Kaiser made two of them and Khorus made one called 'A World in Strife: Raiding the Dam'.

    Descent games - Stuff like "Hated it." is a pet peeve of mine because it's just un-constructive. Just like an author whose levels you didn't like would like to know why, I'd be interested in why you didn't like a game, if you don't mind going into details a bit.

    Blood - Did you ever hear of/play the Death Wish mod, if so thoughts?

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    Re: Your favorite pre-Quake engine first person shooters

    Post by Valts on Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:32 am

    Hexen - the best hub is Hexen: Scourge of Viscerus by
    Matt Tropiano.
    http://www.doomworld.com/idgames/index.php?id=16118
    have great gameplay and story, good job using the Castlevania songs and. I recommend.
    Shattered Steel (1996) was nice mech sim/shooter.

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    Re: Your favorite pre-Quake engine first person shooters

    Post by doomjedi on Tue Feb 05, 2013 4:02 am

    @WolfForever wrote:Have you played/liked any of these?
    No... Sad

    Descent games - Stuff like "Hated it." is a pet peeve of mine because it's just un-constructive. Just like an author whose levels you didn't like would like to know why, I'd be interested in why you didn't like a game, if you don't mind going into details a bit.
    Sorry, didn't meant to offend you in any way, assuming you are not one of the makers of that game.
    I didn't like basically the whole idea of it...gameplay, level design, art...
    If I want to fly and shoot - I loved to play "Terminal Velocity" at that time much more.
    http://youtu.be/GLyrXTL683g


    Blood - Did you ever hear of/play the Death Wish mod, if so thoughts?
    No....

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