Are the Lost Episodes, Holy Grail Episodes, and Amazing Grace Episodes each separate video games?

The Wolfenstein wiki says that the Spear of Destiny Lost Episodes are 2 games. Should Spear of Destiny Episode 1 be considered one video game, Spear of Destiny Episode 2 another video game, and Episode 3 another video game? I would say yes. By saying yes, Doomsday SDL is more than just 7 video games. It is a lot. I have to go back and count how many video games Doomsday SDL takes up.

No the Lost Episodes are nothing more than mods in my view. And the first one is a very bad mod at that (the second at least has more reasonable designs).

What's worse is that I now have the Super CD hint book, and it tries to excuse all the levels in Return to Danger that have near immediate exit access by saying something along the lines of, "but what fun is it to just run to the exit?" That's not an excuse that holds while dealing with designs that are at best extremely mediocre to boot! There is no reasons to want to explore all these RtD levels at all. Since the par times were not changed and these levels give NO respect at all to the relatively long par times of the originals, you can score up a TON of points at the end level screen for basically doing almost nothing. And like I said above, the designs are so weak anyways that there is NOTHING that would encourage you to do elsewise - regardless of what excuses the hintbooks try to make.

In Ultimate Challenge, first of all you cannot easily get out in way under the par time in most cases, even though they are still the original par times, and the designs tend to rise into the acceptavle/lukewarm categories over barely mediocre or pure tripe. While Archer is no genius, he at least knew how to design levels in a way that isn't completely out of line.

Anyways, my vote is no - I just can't help but explain why RtD is such an awful game every time I get the chance, in addition tojow UC at least has a lot of redeeming value in comparison.

They are mapsets. But, define "different game". Sod was a different game? Or only Doom?

Forever, like I said. I believe iD rushed through making the Lost Episodes. I don't see the effort put in there other than unique sprites and textures.

@WolferCooker ID Software is not to blame for the quality of anything in the Lost Episodes except for the fact that they simply gave permission to use Spear of Destiny as a base for the games. They were developed exclusively by FormGen (which incidentally published the original SoD despite the fact that they did NOT develop that; that IS ID Software). And it turns out to be that, AFAIK, FormGen never ever developed another shooter either before or after. So these are the only shooters *made* by FormGen. Thus while this does not void the idea that they likely rushed things some, it's easily possible some designers at FormGen simply did not have the skill. I would assume Return to Danger could have been made by many different members of FormGen; that's why it has many downright awful maps but, admittedly, some barely mediocre ones too, so while the overall quality is very poor and it never really rises to good it is not 100% consistent.

Ultimate Challenge is a little bit different. Every level is by the same author, Archer. And if you play them, the standard here is probably best classified fair, rather than the rock bottom depths of the other episode. There are still problems that ID never committed, but it clearly at least shows conpetency in decent mapping IMO, and RtD couldn't even get that far. With that in mind I'm not quite ready to say UC's mapping was rushed because a lot of authors are far from perfect, and the overall standard of mapping is fairly consistently at the acceptable level from start to finish with no real strong or weak links relative to all the others. But OTOH if RtD was a collaboration of mappers then either they didn't really care much or they rushed it out the door far too soon.

Graphics/sprites/sounds are a different story. I'd have to say they were going to a cartoonish/more futuristic feel than the original even if the setting is not really changed much. This is for both episodes. I personally clearly like the original set better, but they are not game-spoilers for me. Some can be used effectively even, in appropriate places and in conjunction with the original graphics (as has been seen in custom mods). I don't know if I'd settle for rushed or just not that great, since they all seem to at least try to achieve a theme.

With all the evidence I find it to be easily plausible that RtD was when all the new resources were made, and then Archer just used these resources to create different maps for UC, in which case I think he at least succeeded in doing better than those behind RtD.

If scored by mapping efforts alone and I gave 10 points to ID's levels to use them a reference, RtD would probably fall in my book somewhere around a (dreadful) 2, or even slightly below,, and UC would probably be just past the middle, a 6 (5.5-6.5 range) or so I'd say.

Then again, we all know whatSoD's successors should have been, and the two people that should have been behind them...

Shoulda hired people on Wolf3d Haven.

Should've left that thing alone. The Lost Episodes suck so much.

I think you're being a little harsh when making no distinction at all between RtD and UC and just giving a quick broadbrush statement there. Just voicing my opinion though. Not going to say any more.

The Lost Episodes don't exist in my Wolf3d world.

I don't care if it's a little harsh, it's how I feel. There is absolutely nothing to find in either "episodes". The steel panels, doors, OK. The sounds are terrible. The entire atmosphere of the mod is pseudo-spacy but not convincing enough as it's still supposed to be bunkers, prisons etc. The textures are horrific most of the time. Some of the sprites work all right, but as a complete modification, it just doesn't stand in my mind. How hung over were the people behind this back in the day.

Yeah I agree with you there Thomas. I do like some of the sprites and textures, which are used in probably more than 70% of the mods today, but everything else stinks.

I wonder how Ultimate Challenge might fare if it was redone with no changes to the maps, but the audio and vswap files used were the ID Software ones and the texturing/decoration placement (but nothing else about the maps) was changed to fit with the original vswap (and where possible, ceiling colors) appropriately.

Of course can't do that because of copyright, but just a thought. I'd never bother thinking even that far with Return to Danger, because there so much of the mapping is awful it would bring the whole game down regardless of other factors.

Though this does lead to a good question: If everything regarding walls, sprites, and sounds is that bad in The Lost Episodes, then how come multiple third party mods (including some of Thomas') routinely borrow some bits and pieces of those resources yet the mods that do that aren't battered for doing so? The logic has to tie in and make sense here somehow!

I just said I liked some of the sprites and walls and therefore I used them myself, yes. I didn't bash each and every single aspect of this, but as a whole I just don't think it functions. What DO function I HAVE BORROWED and many other have done so too, and that's just fine.

It's the original body of work that collectively just does not work out.

I always thought the worst was the maps.

I can't really blame the maps for the suckiness most of the time (Archer is no saint - lots of those maps have horrible designs/ideas/usage of textures) - but, it's just the same, as the textures are very tough to use in an imaginable way, completely void of excitement and diversity. We have the gray brick we all know. The gray stone wall is all right, but then we have all the (fucking snowflakes on the screen, lol) ... Where was I? Oh, right the textures. Yeah, we have too many cave scenes, too many blue textures (though only 1 or 2 ceiling colors making them useful) - it's just not a wholesome mod. Bits and bobs of it are all right, but as ONE unit it just doesn't function. Not for me.

I don't see how Archer's designs can possible match those in Return to Danger that either (or many times, combinations of these):

a) Allow the player to exit with virtually no effort at all
b) Revolve around big mazes and/or sprialing single-length corridors
c) Are almost perfectly symmetric
d) Contain excessive and/or irrational pushwall placement
e) Involve areas where there is basically no incentive to visit for rewards at all, unless you are a strict 100% completionist
f) Chock large rooms full of random guards that are easily mowed down almost without effort
g) Probably other traits that just didn't occur in my mind

Archer is no genius, but I have strong feelings that he isn't the one responsible for the poor graphics/sprites/sounds - he only was forced to use them despite their lousy quality, and that forced his "use of textures" to be bad by definition since they pretty much cannot be good using the same texture set - and I don't think any of his designs are completely irredeemable.

Bottom line: Ultimate Challenge = Return to Danger without the horrid, horrid maps that top the former (well, later mentioned in this particular sentence) off. No more, no less.

What makes me laugh is WHY are all the weapons colored BLUE?! It's like all those weapons were dunked in blue paint. And what's more, the most common color used in The Lost Episodes is BLUE. Did they have the blues using blue so much until they became blue in the face because of using so much blue? Blue is my favorite color and all, but that to me is excessive.

As far as weapons go, I'm glad some Wolfer recolored those weapons to normal metallic colors back in the old days of Wolf3d modding.

The thing is, I'm so blue every day from being blue, I don't even think those blue weapons look out of place anymore. Now, THAT makes me blue.

I'm also appreciative for the metallic recolorings. And, the only thing I ever nicked from a Mario/Luigi project, a more black LE chaingun (Project Under the Stoli Ritter Sport) or some ridiculous long name.

You mean Unzerstobarer Ritter? It's Mega Luigi's mod. Pretty much the same storyline as WSJ's Eisenritter with some changes.

I always like the original Wolf3d chaingun, except for the color, but the best chaingun that mocks the The Lost Episodes one is the one used in Kuki's Weltuntergang mod.

That should read unzerstörbarer

If one really feels the urge to use the Project {insert difficult German word} naming scheme, then at least try to get the correct grammar.

@ Thomas