Wolf3d Haven Forum

Please log in or register. Smile
Wolf3d Haven Forum

A friendly Wolfenstein 3D community, about Wolfenstein 3D, the game that gave birth to first person shooters...


    SDL sound issue

    Share

    WolfForever
    Senior Member
    Senior Member

    Number of posts : 867
    Age : 26
    Registration date : 2010-12-05

    SDL sound issue

    Post by WolfForever on Sun Nov 25, 2012 11:12 am

    Occasionally when playing Wolf3D/SoD in SDL I trigger this relatively minor but annoying sound bug when loading a savegame (using quicksave/quickload):

    1) The music for the level dies (stops playing).
    2) The sound for items pickups, pushwalls, etc. (audio/vga sounds) is different/seems to be a lower quality.
    3) This is stored in the savegame. So quitting and restarting SDL resets the sounds initially, but it re-initiates when I load the savegame.
    4) If I die or reach the next level, the music plays again, but the audio still sounds wrong.

    I'm wondering if what I described is a common problem, and if so if there's a solution. So if anyone could let me know (both if they have encountered this and/or if there's a solution) that would be appreciated. Smile BTW I am running the exe with no special command-line parameters.

    Thanks!

    Andy
    Seasoned Wolfer
    Seasoned Wolfer

    Number of posts : 280
    Registration date : 2007-12-22

    Re: SDL sound issue

    Post by Andy on Sun Nov 25, 2012 11:20 am

    I've seen this happen a few times - you described it perfectly.

    I have no idea what causes it or how to fix it unfortunately.

    Thomas
    Veteran
    Veteran

    Male
    Number of posts : 1659
    Age : 25
    Registration date : 2007-09-13

    Re: SDL sound issue

    Post by Thomas on Sun Nov 25, 2012 11:32 am

    I've also experienced it. To be honest, I enjoy the digitized sounds (it sounds as if they've been lowered a tone or two) - but yes, it is annoying, and there must be some strange reason for it to happen. I haven't experienced it in quite a while, though.

    WolfForever
    Senior Member
    Senior Member

    Number of posts : 867
    Age : 26
    Registration date : 2010-12-05

    Re: SDL sound issue

    Post by WolfForever on Sun Nov 25, 2012 11:46 am

    Well I'm glad I at least explained it well. Smile That was my first concern.

    As for a solution, maybe Chaos Software knows or something? I'm not trying to prematurely say no one on here knows, or anything like that, considering only two people have responded so far - if anyone does know I'd very much appreciate their response just as much as before! Smile I'm just making mention of the idea, in case it is possible to contact them.

    (@Thomas: Sometimes I go a while without having it too. There seems to be no rhyme or reason as to why/when it happens.)

    Thomas
    Veteran
    Veteran

    Male
    Number of posts : 1659
    Age : 25
    Registration date : 2007-09-13

    Re: SDL sound issue

    Post by Thomas on Sun Nov 25, 2012 11:52 am

    Another thing I'd like to see soon (yes, I know it sounds childish and begging and all that, but coming from ol' fat mouth here it shouldn't be a problem): A Wolfenstein 3-D SDL port in which the pushwall moves 3 squares instead of only 2. Another thing I noticed: The Spear port crashes if you press F8 when you start a new game. You have to go out, click 'Save Game' and then you can press F8 all you want.

    Strange stuff...

    WolferCooker
    Hardcore Wolfer
    Hardcore Wolfer

    Male
    Number of posts : 1160
    Age : 26
    Location : Pennsylvania, U.S.A
    Hobbie : Video games (mostly PC)
    Registration date : 2010-09-24

    Re: SDL sound issue

    Post by WolferCooker on Sun Nov 25, 2012 1:59 pm

    Yep. Nailed it on the head perfectly, Forever. I get this issue too. Apparently everyone gets this issue.

    WolfForever
    Senior Member
    Senior Member

    Number of posts : 867
    Age : 26
    Registration date : 2010-12-05

    Re: SDL sound issue

    Post by WolfForever on Sun Nov 25, 2012 2:42 pm

    @Thomas wrote:Another thing I'd like to see soon (yes, I know it sounds childish and begging and all that, but coming from ol' fat mouth here it shouldn't be a problem): A Wolfenstein 3-D SDL port in which the pushwall moves 3 squares instead of only 2. Another thing I noticed: The Spear port crashes if you press F8 when you start a new game. You have to go out, click 'Save Game' and then you can press F8 all you want.

    Strange stuff...


    The pushwalls thing is downright stupid. I bet ONE line of code is responsible. Someone should contact Chaos Software here, really.

    Andy
    Seasoned Wolfer
    Seasoned Wolfer

    Number of posts : 280
    Registration date : 2007-12-22

    Re: SDL sound issue

    Post by Andy on Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:12 pm

    The default (intended) number of squares for pushwalls to move in the original DOS source is two spaces. Unfortunately, the reality for most computers is that they moved three spaces when allowed. Most mod level designers assumed three space movement. So if you run those levels with the Wolf4SDL engine, you may have problems where the player gets cut off from getting into the secret area. I first encountered this doing SDL conversions for the Mutant Strike series.

    Wolf4SDL was made true to the original code, but in the case of SDL, the code actually works as designed, and not as the DOS behaved. The default for SDL should really be made 3 spaces, IMO.

    When beta-testing ECWolf, we had a similar discussion, where I thought the Hitler Ghost fireballs were moving way too fast. The designer said that's how the code should have run, but since the fireballs were tic-based, they appeared too slow, etc etc etc. But I said that's not the way Wolf3d players experienced the game, and that's what you want to recreate, right? So I think he slowed them down a bit.

    Chaos Software is kinda dead nowadays. If you post in the Wolf4SDL released thread at DHW, Ripper might get your fix/request in when he updates the code every few years. Laughing


    Last edited by Andy on Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:14 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : detail added)

    WolfForever
    Senior Member
    Senior Member

    Number of posts : 867
    Age : 26
    Registration date : 2010-12-05

    Re: SDL sound issue

    Post by WolfForever on Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:17 pm

    If there was a way for me to just decompile my SDL code, change the line, and recompile myself that would be enough for me. I'd just need the tools (hopefully there's at least one free one out there?) and what line I must edit.

    WolferCooker
    Hardcore Wolfer
    Hardcore Wolfer

    Male
    Number of posts : 1160
    Age : 26
    Location : Pennsylvania, U.S.A
    Hobbie : Video games (mostly PC)
    Registration date : 2010-09-24

    Re: SDL sound issue

    Post by WolferCooker on Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:18 pm

    If you post in the Wolf4SDL released thread, Ripper might get your fix/request in when he updates the code every few years.

    Give it another year or two. LOL

    Guest
    Guest

    Re: SDL sound issue

    Post by Guest on Sun Nov 25, 2012 4:13 pm

    Hi Gordon!


    Last edited by Chokster37 on Sat Feb 08, 2014 12:28 pm; edited 1 time in total

    Andy
    Seasoned Wolfer
    Seasoned Wolfer

    Number of posts : 280
    Registration date : 2007-12-22

    Re: SDL sound issue

    Post by Andy on Sun Nov 25, 2012 4:35 pm

    Good point, Chokster. I forgot to consider the (original) designs that require 2-space pushwalls to play correctly. Embarassed

    WolferCooker
    Hardcore Wolfer
    Hardcore Wolfer

    Male
    Number of posts : 1160
    Age : 26
    Location : Pennsylvania, U.S.A
    Hobbie : Video games (mostly PC)
    Registration date : 2010-09-24

    Re: SDL sound issue

    Post by WolferCooker on Sun Nov 25, 2012 6:34 pm

    Screw yall F8 users!

    Hey! I resent that! Laughing

    WolfForever
    Senior Member
    Senior Member

    Number of posts : 867
    Age : 26
    Registration date : 2010-12-05

    Re: SDL sound issue

    Post by WolfForever on Sun Nov 25, 2012 7:29 pm

    The secret wall point is very valid. And it can be serious in certain conditions.

    For example, I know in "Alliance of Powers", Level 4 MUST have a 3-space pushwall move to get the secret exit. So you better be playing on a machine that allows the bug to occur (and in Dos), or you aren't seeing that secret level unless you cheat.

    On the other hand, I looked at E5L8, E6L2, and SoD Floor 4 (the originals). In the first and third cases, there are indeed situations where three space movement blocks out a treasure. Thus you cannot get 100% (but you can in you're in SDL!). On E6L2, however, the flaw is even more fatal. If the pushwall at (19,51) [in MapEdit] goes three spaces, you are blocked out of an entire chain of secrets containing guards, treasure, and toms of health/ammo. Thus if you are not playing that level in SDL or happen to luckily have it move only two spaces in Dos, you cannot get 100% of ANYTHING!

    And these are only examples, that show moving only two spaces can be a serious problem in some cases while moving three spaces can be a serious problem in others.

    I have no clue if there is any way at all to make sure Dos moves it two or three spaces depending on desire, so this is indeed a bug, and it's a double-whammy as well because of the authors who assumed it would always move three spaces (and because of that, as mentioned above, neither number of spaces will be such that it never interferes with.things). So regardless of whether they are always moving two or always three spaces, you can never know if something was improperly blocked off, with the exception that in the originals if they are always moving two spaces you know you're good (since ID Software, at least, always went by what's intended and not what sometimes happens but not always).

    There are only two solutions I can think of - one on the coding side (that will work for any map) and one on the mapping side (that will work for any code):

    1) Introduce a feature where you can "tell" the pushwall if you want it to go two or three spaces (assuming it can go that many spaces without running into something that blocks its movement, thus really you're telling it a maximum of two or three spaces). This will cause some trial and error, but at least the problem CAN be circumvented in every case.

    2) On the mappers side, really only the DHW solution would work. Make all pushwalls so that, if they can go up to three spaces without being blocked, you are sure that nothing is blocked off regardless of if they actually go two or three spaces. For mapsets without a new exe, this really would be the only solution from a mapping standpoint.

    Now I don't know if these are the only solutions for conversions (mods that run on a include a custom exe file), since you might be able to code a custom exe to strictly always go a fixed number of spaces (if not blocked prior), regardless of what it's run on, and then make the maps based on that. So the above two points apply to playing primarily plain mapsets.

    Now I wonder: It'll never be possible (at least not in any short span of time!) to fix every mapset ever released, but could at least the original Wolf3D/SoD games be fixed so that point number 2) applies in every case and a movement of three spaces will never interfere with things? I could probably actually do it all myself, but would be concerned about copyright. However, it would require me to include only the GAMEMAPS and MAPHEAD files in the update. So on the other hand, it might not be any infringement to release an upgrade at least to the originals, since it's fully possible to do so and still very much be assured the user must have every other wl6/sod file as well as the exe to play the game. And fixing the originals would be a starting point - after all, if nothing else from the past is perfected, at least the original maps ought to be! What do you think of this idea?

    WolfForever
    Senior Member
    Senior Member

    Number of posts : 867
    Age : 26
    Registration date : 2010-12-05

    Re: SDL sound issue

    Post by WolfForever on Sun Nov 25, 2012 8:12 pm

    I've decided to check every commercial Wolf3D and SoD level to find out when a three space move can cause a problem (block off an item or path). And I'm only listing cases where (intended) movement of two spaces does NOT block anything off:

    Wolfenstein 3D (all coordinates from MapEdit):
    Episode 1: No issues can ever be caused. Hooray for shareware!
    Episode 2: No issues once again, Eisenfaust is a winner!
    Episode 3: Level 4 - first problem in the game. (34,57) will block a medkit if it goes three spaces.
    Episode 4: On Level 2, (18,33) will block a treasure if it goes three spaces, unless you already got said treasure through (20,37).
    Episode 5: On Level 2, (52,40) goes over an ammo item if it goes three spaces. On Level 4, (24,43) stops on a medkit if it goes three spaces. On Level 5, a treasure is blocked with (8,49) going three spaces. Another treasure is blocked by (37,12) on Level 8 which Chokster mentioned.
    Episode 6: Level 2 has an extremely critical problem with (19,51) as described previously. And, within that chain of secrets, (12,32) will block off an extra life. On Level 8, (40,23) will block off a treasure, and (52,58) will stop over top of an ammunition clip.On Level 9 (boss), (16,47) will stop on a medkit. Finally, on the secret level (10), (52,49) will stop on an extra life but make the other two attainable, while two spaces blocks off that entire section of the secret.

    Spear of Destiny (note: only covering the first (original) mission for now, not the Lost Episodes)
    On Level 4 (already mentioned by Chokster) - (23,46) stops on a treasure.
    On Level 11, (22,53) will stop on a treasure and (26,9) will stop on a one-up if not already collected
    On Level 12, (8,58) will block off the secret elevator (and you can get there through another combination, but have to use (8,58) to get 100% on everything and also the secret exit).
    On Level 13, (48,31) will land on a treasure unless you already picked it up.
    On Level 15, (32,49) will stop on a medkit.
    On Secret Level 1 (Level 19), (50,21) will land on a medkit.
    Note: I don't have nearly enough time to examine Secret Level 2 (Level 20) - just waaayyy too complex of a level with far too many secrets to check them all.

    Thomas
    Veteran
    Veteran

    Male
    Number of posts : 1659
    Age : 25
    Registration date : 2007-09-13

    Re: SDL sound issue

    Post by Thomas on Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:11 am

    That's some great investigation, right there. As for The Lost Episodes... There are plenty of "blockable" items. I don't want to do a list. I'm sick enough of that game as it is (and I've only done 3 maps!) ... lol...

    I corrected an error in Totengraeber's level 16. There's a pushwall in the opening room which needs 4 spaces (obviously a bug) to be completed, but MCS and I agreed that we just move the whole thing one tad down, so it won't be blocked.

    Yes! Contribution! Razz

    WolfForever
    Senior Member
    Senior Member

    Number of posts : 867
    Age : 26
    Registration date : 2010-12-05

    Re: SDL sound issue

    Post by WolfForever on Mon Nov 26, 2012 4:18 am

    Thanks for the compliment(s)! Smile

    I did forget to note that in Episode 2 (of Wolf3D), I did not examine that whole Aardwolf! maze thing (on E2L8), that would be far more work than even SoD Level 20 (which I might try to do later).

    If you (anyone can apply here) want your favorite add-ons examined, I can consider doing so on request, time permitting. But if it's from an author still active I wouldn't recommend releasing any "patches" without first asking consent. On that regard, would it be appropriate to release "unofficial" patches for Wolf3D and SoD (with only GAMEMAPS and MAPHEAD files included)? I could probably manipulate out most if not all the problems I listed, in one way or another, making everything attainable with either 2 or 3 space pushwall moves. Finding all the issues is possibly the hardest part!

    Return to Danger has such horrid pushwall placement that I'm probably never going to be able to cover it all...Ultimate Challenge still has a ton of pushwalls even though it's designed somewhat better. So those aren't anywhere in the near future, most likely.

    Nonetheless (@Thomas) if you are already tired of the Lost Episodes, I'd recommend either playing Ultimate Challenge IF you can get it installed free, as its mapping is at least competent, OR instead of doing a pure mapset for the Lost Episodes you could make it a conversion or at least a new VSWAP with some new walls/sprites and/or modified colors, that might make it easier to brainstorm some good level ideas given more variety, without losing the "theme" of these episodes completely. Just a suggestion.

    Thomas
    Veteran
    Veteran

    Male
    Number of posts : 1659
    Age : 25
    Registration date : 2007-09-13

    Re: SDL sound issue

    Post by Thomas on Mon Nov 26, 2012 5:11 am

    I have the Lost Episodes, I know some of the maps and I know exactly what I'm doing. I'm following that "no officers until level 4/only shitty textures for starters" thing.

    Another one: Near the exit of Chemical Warfare's level 17 there is a secret with multiple accesses, no matter which way you enter, one can never achieve 100 % secrets on this one. This also blocks treasure as well as ammo and health. Jack Ryerson had some great ideas in mind in regards to design, but silly little thing such as this just slipped right on by. Other than that, the mod has mainly no bugs mapping-wise. Of course, there are those trick pushwalls on level 29. Fabulous stuff. Hopefully it'll be ported to SDL one day.


    WolfForever
    Senior Member
    Senior Member

    Number of posts : 867
    Age : 26
    Registration date : 2010-12-05

    Re: SDL sound issue

    Post by WolfForever on Mon Nov 26, 2012 9:10 am

    Still - I feel one of my main questions is being overlooked: Would it be appropriate (as in, no copyright concerns) to upload "unofficial patch files" that contain altered GAMEMAPS and MAPHEAD files (but no other required files) that make changes simply to allow for both 2 and 3 block pushwall movements (without blocking anything off) in all of the original Wolf3D/SoD levels?

    And this isn't just @Thomas per se, but to anybody willing to participate in this discussion.

    Andy
    Seasoned Wolfer
    Seasoned Wolfer

    Number of posts : 280
    Registration date : 2007-12-22

    Re: SDL sound issue

    Post by Andy on Mon Nov 26, 2012 11:29 am

    Yes it would violate copyright and therefore be inappropriate. A better solution is to create unique EXEs to handle individual cases. For the original maps, your EXEs should move pushwalls only two spaces. The binaries posted at ChaosEdit fit the bill. Only problems is, they are not kept up-to-date with the latest fixes.

    WolfForever
    Senior Member
    Senior Member

    Number of posts : 867
    Age : 26
    Registration date : 2010-12-05

    Re: SDL sound issue

    Post by WolfForever on Mon Nov 26, 2012 11:34 am

    Where can I find the latest fixes, and how can they be integrated into the exe file(s)?

    WolferCooker
    Hardcore Wolfer
    Hardcore Wolfer

    Male
    Number of posts : 1160
    Age : 26
    Location : Pennsylvania, U.S.A
    Hobbie : Video games (mostly PC)
    Registration date : 2010-09-24

    Re: SDL sound issue

    Post by WolferCooker on Mon Nov 26, 2012 11:35 am

    I'm all for 3 block pushwalls, but Forever I don't think we should mess with the original Wolf3d/SoD EXEs. The maps you can mess with since some mods have a few modified versions of the original levels, but that's about as far as you can get.

    And obviously you know why. It's kind of pushing the envelope to publically modify the maps under the original EXEs.r

    And Forever, like someone said earlier, you have to talk to Ripper for any bug fixes in the Wolf4SDL EXE, but obviously every few years.

    WolfForever
    Senior Member
    Senior Member

    Number of posts : 867
    Age : 26
    Registration date : 2010-12-05

    Re: SDL sound issue

    Post by WolfForever on Mon Nov 26, 2012 11:45 am

    Or I could just always play original levels in SDL, since they will always go two spaces, which is what ID intended.

    BTW it was Andy who first mentioned the idea of EXE modification, not me.



    Andy
    Seasoned Wolfer
    Seasoned Wolfer

    Number of posts : 280
    Registration date : 2007-12-22

    Re: SDL sound issue

    Post by Andy on Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:10 pm

    @WolfForever wrote:Where can I find the latest fixes, and how can they be integrated into the exe file(s)?
    There's a running thread at DHW forum called Wolf4SDL released under SDL Code Crackers which initially announced the project, people posted what they thought, gave helpful feedback, and nowadays contains the latest fixes for Ripper to apply to the Wolf4SDL source code. Anyone compiling the EXE can (mostly) cut and paste these fixes into their own source code and create their own "bug-free" vanilla EXE.

    Here is the point in time of the last ChaosEdit release. All of the subsequent fixes posted are NOT in the current version 1.7 of Wolf4SDL.

    Andy

    Thomas
    Veteran
    Veteran

    Male
    Number of posts : 1659
    Age : 25
    Registration date : 2007-09-13

    Re: SDL sound issue

    Post by Thomas on Tue Nov 27, 2012 12:22 am

    Maybe I should learn how to fix simple things in the code. I always thought it was interesting to mess around the code though I didn't know what I was doing.

    2 spaces is just how it is. In fact, I've gotten so used to it that I use it in mods where 3 spaces are the norm anyway. Twisted Evil

    WolferCooker
    Hardcore Wolfer
    Hardcore Wolfer

    Male
    Number of posts : 1160
    Age : 26
    Location : Pennsylvania, U.S.A
    Hobbie : Video games (mostly PC)
    Registration date : 2010-09-24

    Re: SDL sound issue

    Post by WolferCooker on Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:48 pm

    2 or 3 spaces don't matter to me as long as the secret areas are not blocked off.

    Sponsored content

    Re: SDL sound issue

    Post by Sponsored content Today at 5:06 am


      Current date/time is Sat Oct 01, 2016 5:06 am