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    The Lost Episodes - - Map designs

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    Pick your opinion!

    [ 3 ]
    43% [43%] 
    [ 0 ]
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    [ 4 ]
    57% [57%] 
    [ 0 ]
    0% [0%] 

    Total Votes: 7

    WolfForever
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    The Lost Episodes - - Map designs

    Post by WolfForever on Fri Nov 16, 2012 7:41 am

    Title pretty much is what this poll is for. Focus only on levels and play. Nothing to add except I don't want skewed votes based on the fact that they weren't free. And commenting is fine, of course. Smile

    My vote: third option. Okay basically means at least reasonable.

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    Re: The Lost Episodes - - Map designs

    Post by Guest on Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:38 am

    I chose the third option. The Ultimate Challenge is the best designed mapset of the lost episodes. I still think the Ultimate Challenge should have used different enemies and bosses though.

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    Re: The Lost Episodes - - Map designs

    Post by WolfForever on Fri Nov 16, 2012 12:09 pm

    Personally, I just forget about the story and all, ignore RtD since it's mapping sticks, and simply treat UC just like any other okay old Wold/SOD mod.

    RtD is something that never really should have been sold, to be very honest. Then that would probably have left people *just* satisfied enough with UC at the time as a commercial SOD mission pack.

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    Re: The Lost Episodes - - Map designs

    Post by Dark_wizzie on Fri Nov 16, 2012 12:43 pm

    ID software's mapping is just meh. It never blew me away. Lost episodes just look ridiculous, never played it. I've only played add-ons with those sprites.



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    Re: The Lost Episodes - - Map designs

    Post by WolfForever on Fri Nov 16, 2012 1:30 pm

    Well sure ID might be meh compared to something like say, Spear Resurrection. But it was revolutionary back in the day, and still holds up as good enough for most, especially considering its importance in starting the whole genre more than just every map taken individually.

    Also don't think we don't know you like far more extensive designs that ID Software made (@Dark_Wizzie); that doesn't fool me Laughing

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    Re: The Lost Episodes - - Map designs

    Post by Dark_wizzie on Fri Nov 16, 2012 1:36 pm

    @WolfForever wrote:

    Also don't think we don't know you like far more extensive designs that ID Software made
    Like what? Cool



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    Re: The Lost Episodes - - Map designs

    Post by WolfForever on Fri Nov 16, 2012 2:13 pm

    SHS, some This Spear levels? Though This Spear was much better IMO, but that isn't a focus of this thread.

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    Re: The Lost Episodes - - Map designs

    Post by WolfForever on Fri Nov 16, 2012 7:55 pm

    I thoroughly examined maps of all 42 Lost Levels. A couple findings:

    1) UC is made solely by Archer, at least every map has his signature.
    2) In RtD, here would be my level-by-level roundup, since it's been very, very long since I've properly played it (short comments, and a preliminary design score I'd assess):

    Level 1: Acceptable starting level. 60%
    Level 2: Still acceptable, no stinkers yet. 60%
    Level 3: Need a secret for a key, though it sticks out in a position that is somewhat obvious. Otherwise okay, but full of maximum narrowness hallways. 50%
    Level 4: Way too many secrets (23?)! It looks like it can be done multiple ways (not just normal exit and secret exit) but the use of secret doors is abusive. 30%
    Level 19: Actually looked like a good map. But there is a mandatory secret that's not well market (and with limited hints as to where to search). 70%
    Level 5: Never a big fan of just plain mazes, but it isn't among the worst. Secrets required, but not hard to find them. 60%
    Level 6: Actually looks competently done, need both keys and no need for secrets. It's a trick for the maps coming up though. 75%
    Level 7: Almost completely optional; the exit is within 15 seconds easily if you know where to go. This wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't the start of a trend... 20%
    Level 8: Nasty maze that can mostly be trespassed by staying closest to the outer rim and finding a secret. Still, not much to like about it either way.. 10%
    Level 9: Same as Level 7! I just can't look positively on a level that clearly intentionally lets you get to the exit so fast that your beat of the par will give you more than honest exploration. 20%
    Level 10: Not the worst, the red herring with the key wasn't done that badly, but need a secret for the boss. 50%
    Level 11: That's it, three times where the exit is so easy to reach is just too much. There needs to be some challenge, alright? 15%
    Level 12: Sure you have to find a secret or two to get out really fast. But they're quite marked. So ditto... 20%
    Level 20: Not bad really except one key is in a secret in the middle of nowhere. 65%
    Level 13: Too symmetric, though at least needs a key, but very formulaic. 45%
    Level 14: Come on this optional map thing is ridiculous. And the exit's a secret to boot. 15%
    Level 15: The famous Tic Tac Toe level! It actually isn't all that bad. 60%
    Level 16: Not half bad, you must explore three of the wings. 60%
    Level 17: That key you can block off permanently is -10 immediately. Shame, since otherwise isn't not horrible. 50%
    Level 18/21: Not really much unlike the combination in the original SoD. At least it sticks to a formula. Don't really want to rate this.

    On the other hand, the lion's share of UC maps could probably fall into a comfortable 60-70% range, a few probably even cracking past that. I don't think anything drops under the 50% level for its time. It's no AAA product, but Archer at least knows how to make the mapping competent. The biggest flaw remaining is use of mandatory secrets; sometimes it's fairly visible you must find a secret though. Bottom line however is that there are no total stinkers in UC. Obviously the end of the "story" (as in whatever story that is) has to tie to Doom somehow... UC in my view would have been a strictly okay mission pack were it released individually, and not too focused on story or similar stuff like that. I wonder if half of RtD was thrown together in an evening...

    Of course all this said, I can't call either of these more than just mods. SoD's "real" sequel is pretty blatantly obvious...if that stuff had sold for money back in the 90s I think it would have been a monumental hit. Free is only that much better!

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    Re: The Lost Episodes - - Map designs

    Post by Andy on Sat Nov 17, 2012 2:13 am

    Nice detailed review!

    What I did like about them is that they are mods, not new games. They make use of the existing SoD engine. Kind of inspirational in my early modding days (along with Loren G. Dobert's Wolfendoom patch and the PC-CRAP Barneystein one).

    And of course, they are not sequels to SoD, no matter what FormGen claimed! Razz

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    Re: The Lost Episodes - - Map designs

    Post by Thomas on Sat Nov 17, 2012 2:44 am

    @Dark_wizzie wrote:ID software's mapping is just meh. It never blew me away.
    WHOA! Easy now, man! You don't want to mess with... Oh, wait, no one cares anyway. This is ludicrous. id Software's maps are not just meh. Episode 6, the best episode in THE WORLD is not just 'meh'. Episode 2 and 4 are wonderful as well. I understand the triteness of Episode 1 but if you've never played it before it's great as well. Episode 3 is a slinky little compact episode with not much to be said. I suppose Episode 5 has some bummers, but even that is to die for if not for the turquoise ceiling.

    Spear is mostly meh though. Need to play this again and pretend I give a damn this time.

    If all EXE's came with the 2-square secret function people wouldn't be scratching their heads and say the original maps were shit. If you want to play map sets, though, such as acktung! and the like, you need a 3-square secret EXE. I'm still looking for one so I can give acktung! a proper review and see what the fuss is all about.

    But who - the - hell tested the maps back in the day? The marching guards in both Wolf and SoD could just as well have been planted by a blind, drunk Chinaman on a very bad day. I mean... Come on! They expect the guards to react and say "oh! a plant. I shall just jump right thru it" or something like that?! No. And DOGS marching WITH guards?!?! That is insane. From that aspect, yes, there are some 'meh' to boot, but it doesn't change the fact that the raw maps without guards at least (some sprites were pretty duff too) are almost perfect. Yes, folks, I'll have the overview map of E6M7 tattooed on my pasty, hairy back some sunny day.

    As for the lost crappisodes, I'll go with option 3. I like Ultimate Challenge's maps, but now it's Saturday and I got way too pissed last night and I just need a sit-in. Maybe it'll be good to actually play these mods (they are "mods" now, right?) instead of bitching, bashing and imagining my way to the last boss, which sucks ass 'cause it's a stupid robot. And the new Angel of Death speaks German. That's awesome.

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    Re: The Lost Episodes - - Map designs

    Post by Dark_wizzie on Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:26 am

    @Thomas wrote:
    @Dark_wizzie wrote:ID software's mapping is just meh. It never blew me away.
    WHOA! Easy now, man! You don't want to mess with... Oh, wait, no one cares anyway. This is ludicrous. id Software's maps are not just meh. Episode 6, the best episode in THE WORLD is not just 'meh'. Episode 2 and 4 are wonderful as well. I understand the triteness of Episode 1 but if you've never played it before it's great as well. Episode 3 is a slinky little compact episode with not much to be said. I suppose Episode 5 has some bummers, but even that is to die for if not for the turquoise ceiling.

    Spear is mostly meh though. Need to play this again and pretend I give a damn this time.

    If all EXE's came with the 2-square secret function people wouldn't be scratching their heads and say the original maps were shit. If you want to play map sets, though, such as acktung! and the like, you need a 3-square secret EXE. I'm still looking for one so I can give acktung! a proper review and see what the fuss is all about.

    But who - the - hell tested the maps back in the day? The marching guards in both Wolf and SoD could just as well have been planted by a blind, drunk Chinaman on a very bad day. I mean... Come on! They expect the guards to react and say "oh! a plant. I shall just jump right thru it" or something like that?! No. And DOGS marching WITH guards?!?! That is insane. From that aspect, yes, there are some 'meh' to boot, but it doesn't change the fact that the raw maps without guards at least (some sprites were pretty duff too) are almost perfect. Yes, folks, I'll have the overview map of E6M7 tattooed on my pasty, hairy back some sunny day.

    As for the lost crappisodes, I'll go with option 3. I like Ultimate Challenge's maps, but now it's Saturday and I got way too pissed last night and I just need a sit-in. Maybe it'll be good to actually play these mods (they are "mods" now, right?) instead of bitching, bashing and imagining my way to the last boss, which sucks ass 'cause it's a stupid robot. And the new Angel of Death speaks German. That's awesome.

    The marching errors should have been fixed. I'm not giving it any credit for being first, I'm just talking about from a mapping standpoint. I'm not really that into the mapping of original ID maps, especially the mazes/boss levels. Except from episode 3/6, the boss levels were way too easy. There's an entire arena for a boss that is downed in 30 seconds. I'd prefer a boss in a big base with many rooms.

    And what is 2-square secret function...?



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    Re: The Lost Episodes - - Map designs

    Post by Thomas on Sat Nov 17, 2012 5:15 am

    You know, when the pushwall only moves two squares rather than three.

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    Re: The Lost Episodes - - Map designs

    Post by WolfForever on Sat Nov 17, 2012 5:23 am

    @Andy wrote:Nice detailed review!

    What I did like about them is that they are mods, not new games. They make use of the existing SoD engine. Kind of inspirational in my early modding days (along with Loren G. Dobert's Wolfendoom patch and the PC-CRAP Barneystein one).

    And of course, they are not sequels to SoD, no matter what FormGen claimed! Razz

    Wolfendoom was made by Areyep, not Loren!

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    Re: The Lost Episodes - - Map designs

    Post by Andy on Sat Nov 17, 2012 7:04 am

    Sorry I meant Doomenstein!

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    Re: The Lost Episodes - - Map designs

    Post by Thomas on Sat Nov 17, 2012 9:12 am

    I just think PC-CRAP is the sweetest alias. I wish I'd gotten there first. lol!

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    Re: The Lost Episodes - - Map designs

    Post by WolfForever on Sat Nov 17, 2012 11:44 am

    IMO Archer's UC mapping reaches at least to the "acceptable" category throughout, while at least a full 40-50 percent of RtD maps qualify as junk.

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    Re: The Lost Episodes - - Map designs

    Post by Thomas on Sat Nov 17, 2012 12:24 pm

    Archer used great design ideas, at times narrow and mazy, but narrow and mazy in the sense that it's acceptable to play, you don't get lost too easy and the pushwalls aren't placed extremely inadmissible.

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    Re: The Lost Episodes - - Map designs

    Post by WolfForever on Sat Nov 17, 2012 1:02 pm

    Thomas: regarding RtD do you agree with my comments, or would you argue it is designed acceptably as well? Why or why not (in your own personal view)?

    Also what do you mean with the term "placed extremely admissable"?

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    Re: The Lost Episodes - - Map designs

    Post by Thomas on Sat Nov 17, 2012 1:09 pm

    I can't say anything before I've played the games in earnest, but I can already see that RtD isn't worth playing in comparison with UC. And by admissible I mean that the pushwalls are not hard to find, and in that case that is a good thing.

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    Re: The Lost Episodes - - Map designs

    Post by WolfForever on Sat Nov 17, 2012 1:19 pm

    So are the pushwalls in UC hard (bad thing) or not hard (good thing) to find?

    Also how can you already tell RtD isn't worthwhile, or are you only using exclusively what is in this thread to make that determination?

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    Re: The Lost Episodes - - Map designs

    Post by WolfForever on Sat Nov 17, 2012 7:58 pm

    Duh (@ myself)!

    When I think about it, the evidence suggests to me that whoever made those find exit immediately maps in RtD was obviously really intrigued with the original E2L7. Problem is, he/she did it way too many times and they're not even well designed levels to begin with. It's like just a waste of time to explore the whole levels. E2L7, you can't possibly tally up the score by just running right into the exit that you can if you find 100/100/100, even though you'll forgo any par time bonus.

    ID did do a pretty nasty mandatory necessary secret on one level, E4L5, if you ask me. Won't count E4L7, with the floor code set up it's far from mandatory. And SoD Level 20, but that's a secret level anyways.

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    Re: The Lost Episodes - - Map designs

    Post by Thomas on Sun Nov 18, 2012 2:45 am

    I love 'nasty' secrets. It increases the gameplay and puts the player a bit on the edge. It's not fun just running around huge square rooms without guards and pushwalls in obvious places such as banners, Hitler pics etc. etc.

    And the concept of E2L7 is fantastic. I did a mean rip off in my Wolf map set, I think. lol!

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    Re: The Lost Episodes - - Map designs

    Post by Dark_wizzie on Sun Nov 18, 2012 3:16 am

    I did a huge secret pushwall puzzle in Super Haven Mapset in 'Nazi Base' level. It was an attempt to out-do that big aardwolf secret.



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    Re: The Lost Episodes - - Map designs

    Post by Thomas on Sun Nov 18, 2012 3:48 am

    The Aardwolf secret loses its fun by being impossible to complete 100 % without screwing up. If it had been organized a little better I would gladly have given it a shot.

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    Re: The Lost Episodes - - Map designs

    Post by ronwolf1705 on Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:49 am

    @Thomas wrote:The Aardwolf secret loses its fun by being impossible to complete 100 % without screwing up. If it had been organized a little better I would gladly have given it a shot.

    That's my beef with it as well. That, and I remember my version not having the Aardwolf sign, so basically I put in all the effort for a pile of bones. Laughing




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    Re: The Lost Episodes - - Map designs

    Post by Thomas on Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:18 am

    Yeah, I rip the Aardwolf sign out of the shareware version and insert it before anything.

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    Re: The Lost Episodes - - Map designs

    Post by Dark_wizzie on Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:53 am

    Wolfercooker, next time when you make a poll, can you include the subject in the poll question? I can't exactly put up this poll on the portal when it simply shows "Pick your favorite!" as the question.

    I looked at some screenshots of those mapsets just now. The sprites are still whacko, but I actually like some of the wall textures. But again, I don't feel these two were that special. This might be because I have not played it yet, while I have played Wolf3d and Sod as a kid. (Hell, I'm used to the friggin' cyan chaingun! Like, WTF?)



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    Re: The Lost Episodes - - Map designs

    Post by Thomas on Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:43 am

    Yeah, they made everything blue here. That's a stinker. I love me some cyan.

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    Re: The Lost Episodes - - Map designs

    Post by WolfForever on Wed Nov 21, 2012 5:46 am

    Dark_Wizzie: Feel free to change the question description if you'd like, it doesn't/won't bother me at all. Smile

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    Re: The Lost Episodes - - Map designs

    Post by WolfForever on Wed Nov 21, 2012 9:37 am

    Just more observations/thoughts here:

    I wonder who made the maps in RtD. Archer was solely in charge for UC; evidence is that his signature is on literally EVERY map.

    Levels 7-14 are really where RtD makes its worst stride (minus the mandatory key that you can completely block off in Level 17 with no clear alternative to get past the locked door [unlike E4L7]). You can finish five of those eight levels with virtually no effort in finding keys or exploring whatsoever, and the remaining three consist of a horrible maze level, and I guess two just merely mediocre levels (10 and 13).

    Archer's designs are always competent IMO, never committing anything worse than mandatory secrets on some of them, that usually isn't ridiculously hard to find (and is never one you can mess up and trap yourself because of). He does let you reach the normal exit without either key on Levels 4 and 12, but not within mere seconds, and also does a good job making you take the full adventure to find the secret exits in those levels.

    Obviously they still aren't levels you'd pay extra money for in this day and age, but at least the designs show competence, especially weighing in the fact they were made no later than 1994, before we had anything but some decent and a handful or so of good shareware/registered sets for free.

    Not to mention I hear so many people (generally, YouTubers) complain about how they didn't change any of the texts or add advanced, all new features in The Lost Episodes. They don't realize something - YOU NEED THE SOURCE TO DO THAT AND ID HADN'T RELEASED IT YET! Time perspective is important!

    In this modern age, SR and EOD are obviously the real sequels to SOD, and for good reason, since they are like infinitely superior, but you must remember that just because it's that way now (and has been for many years) doesn't mean it was that way then. Sure it would have been really cool if someone could have come up with a combo as good as that for The Lost Episodes, but before even starting they'd have to license the source, which would likely be expensive if ID even allowed it at all.

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    Re: The Lost Episodes - - Map designs

    Post by Thomas on Wed Nov 21, 2012 10:15 am

    Yes, and let's face it, by 1994 DooM had taken over the market of coolness. There really wasn't much demand for stuff such as The Lost Episodes. This was when the computer game market started to move. FAST.

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    Re: The Lost Episodes - - Map designs

    Post by WolfForever on Wed Nov 21, 2012 10:26 am

    Yet to this day I am still hung with primarily Wolf, DOOM, Duke, and Quake (plus some games with the same engines). Past that, most stuff just started to become too story-driven for me. There's only one primary thing I love to do most in shooters: Take out a weapon and be able to SHOOT things!

    I do think though that if SR and/or EOD were released in 1994 as official mission packs, they would have gotten quite a stellar following from Wolf3D aficionados all over. Smile

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