How is Thomas' Wolfenstein 3D?

I don't think even Conflict in the Fatherland tries so hard (given it has a few vswap modifications, for starters) to be this 100% faithful to the original game! Literally, is this a true candidate for something id could have cooked up and just never released, when they chose to only use 60 levels in the game? Please vote what you think is appropriate and any commentary is welcome!

I'm sorry to admit I didn't play it as it requires the original files, and between looking for Wolf3SDL files and mixing them with Wolf3D files - was just too complicated for me.
If only someone can PM me working SDL pack with all the files....

I can try later today to find SDL. Or I could just upload and post a link to everything in my wolf3d folder except the non-map related wl6 files and wolf3d.exe - in that case, it would be ready for play once you copied my files over into a base wolf3d folder of yours. Which would you prefer?

I don't think it's 'complicated', I'm just too lazy.

I'll try to link to a zip later today that will have it ready for play in SDL once extracted into a folder that contains the required original files.

Who voted the bottom option, if they don't mind sharing?

Anyways as promised you can download the attachment file, extract to an original Wolf 3D folder, and be able to play this straight out of the box with SDL! NO modifications have been made to the original archive other than to add SDL files.

Hi Francis!

Haven't played it yet, want to see how worthwhile the community thinks it is.

WolfForever wrote:Who voted the bottom option, if they don't mind sharing?

That would be me

Admittedly Thomas' style is not yours, but it never has been either. What didn't you like about it, or are you just not a big Thomas fan in general?

WolfForever wrote:Admittedly Thomas' style is not yours, but it never has been either.

This I did not know.

Opinions, opinions, who cares... I had fun making this set & still believe my best work lies ahead of me.

Who made the second bottom option vote (again, if they don't mind sharing)?

Voting does not really give me anything. I need specific feedback in order for me to grow and find out what it is that I still need to accomplish with my mapping.

Hi Bradley!

Hi Christopher!

[quote="Chokster37"]

Thomas wrote:

I haven't voted, and I think the "vote options" are kind of strange because the top 3 options combine two separate ideas together into one sentence (LOL), but I'm glad you made this. As WolfForever said, it's rare to see a 60-episode tribute to the original wolf3d on this level.

I can make it multiple choice if you want, the poll.

[quote="Chokster37"]

Thomas wrote:I haven't voted, and I think the "vote options" are kind of strange because the top 3 options combine two separate ideas together into one sentence (LOL), but I'm glad you made this. As WolfForever said, it's rare to see a 60-episode tribute to the original wolf3d on this level.

It's basically their intent.

The top option means "total success" - i.e. the maps perfectly capture the original flavor/experience AND are at least as good as the originals.

The second from top means the map quality is at least as good as the originals, but the original flavor is not ideally captured.

The third option means the level quality, while not bad, is NOT as good as the original. To me, if this is true, it is implied that it does not ideally recreate the feel of the original. Hence no option saying something like "The experience is well captured, but the levels are inferior.". This option does, however, mean that you'd at least call it "good" if you treated it in the way you'd treat any other release (not considering any specific goals of this particular add-on).

And the bottom option, of course, means you simply did not like the level set, even if you viewed it completely separate from the goals it is trying to accomplish and treated it as you would any other release.

I might give this one a try, but to perfectly capture the original flavor and experience your mapping would have to be like ID Software's mapping, at least in my opinion, and I don't see how that is possible.

Any Wolf3D files I add I get the "wrong number of chunks"....what version does it fit?
I still can't play it...and very much want to.

@doomjedi PM on the way for help

Thanks The more Wolf3D version I have, the more versions "SplitWolf" will be able to support/be tested under.

PM delivered!

I'm only on level 2 - but I'm loving this. I'm a big fan of Thomas's mapping style, he really does magic.
Areas look new and not-used before, ideas, designs - original, intensive and well/planned.
It's amazing how inventive you can be on such overmodded engine with such limited art resources.

He never get's out of ideas and makes tons of maps, fast.

Can you place a rating and give a verdict when you're further in? Would be appreciated.

I'm on level 6.... maaaan this mappack is a joygasm.....this is sooo cool!!!
Everything is so original, so well planned....to perfection. This is sooo way better than the original. This is the same quality of "Time to Kill" I loved so much....

BTW this is the first time I decided to play wolf3D mod in 3rd skill, and not in baby skill I found out it's much simpler than I thought, and makes your more creative.

doomjedi wrote:BTW this is the first time I decided to play wolf3D mod in 3rd skill, and not in baby skill I found out it's much simpler than I thought, and makes your more creative.

Exactly! I'm glad you're going all in, doomjedi.

You're welcome
Your mods are the only "oldschool" mods I have fun to play.

BTW somewhat unrelated, but @doomjedi - do you play Doom?

Also, progress in this set & is the quality keeping up?

This poll is rather uninformative...got 50% loves and 50% don't likes. Oh well.

Still interested in thoughts though, esp. doomjedi.

WolfForever wrote:BTW somewhat unrelated, but @doomjedi - do you play Doom?

Not anymore.
The pause started after my new comp had openGL problems at first.

I did play "Brutal Doom" mod (relatively) lately and enjoyed it much.
This is "dream Doom" to me - recommend it to averyone. This is Doom like it should've been - balancing features and classic feel/look.

Also, progress in this set & is the quality keeping up?

Yep

Stuck on level 4 with one key.
I think it's the 3rd episode...or 4th...level with 2 "cross-style" corridors.

^Looks like Thomas pulled an original E4L7 here (only worse because you can't have a guard open the locked door for you).

It is E4L4 you are on, and in the portion of the corridor between the two gold key doors, DO NOT search the bright side of the inner wall for a secret. If you hit that wall and find a secret with two medkits (+25 health) to the left (or an empty corridor if you've already hit the wall referred to in the next paragraph), you have made the level impossible to complete and must restart.

Instead, use the secret wall on the dark side of the inner wall and you won't be able to get both medkits but you will have access to a corridor that leads up to the room with the silver key.

@Thomas, that was a really fast one you pulled there, making it possible to have a level be in-completable is NEVER advised unless you are specifically making a puzzle-themed mod (like Poet's work, etc.).

On the other had, @doomjedi what are your thoughts of the episodes up to this point?

EDIT: Screenshot. Don't push the wall in the red circle!



p.s. Anyone who wants to point this design choice out (in a review, etc.) can feel free to copy this screen without asking for my permission.

I'm not sorry for anything, and I think it was all right. I've seen similar features in the works of AReyeP and John Bucksnort, but seemingly, if it's in their mods, suddenly it's okay. It's a masterpiece in design, even.

The original E4L4 had a trick pushwall as well, either you block the ammo or the health. If you play it straight, you can easily release both pushwalls, as in E4L2 (both my map set and the original). Was it mean? Yes. Can you get 100 % straight? Yes. I know I did when I played it through.

Thanks guys, I'd never have found it myself.
Hate keys after pushwalls. Creative idea though.

I loved the ending trap on this level - classic. Even after loading a saved game - you know the trap - but still can't avoid it well.
Good example how much thought and planning go into mapping of this.

The "guards behind the lamps" idea was original also....very touph challenge.

So much original ideas in one mod....every Thomas's mod...this is top creativity for me. Still classic Wolf3D feel without crazy walls and designs - and yet so fresh, challengable, new, original.

I keep loving this mod much.
At some point I thought it's too easy and wanted to post about it - but then I noticed that after killing Hans (first Boss ever I killed on hard skill, yay!) - I "automatically" selected baby skill for the next episode/s, like I was used to...power of habit So next chapters might have been especially easy for me after playing the first episode on hard skill - for the first time ever.
I might need to re-play those on hard skill.

Maybe will come a time that I'll play Doom on any skill higher than baby skill. Will be my first time then. Or "Heretic"...or "Hexen"...or "ROTT"....or any other old game. Maybe even Commander Keen".

Thomas wrote:I'm not sorry for anything, and I think it was all right. I've seen similar features in the works of AReyeP and John Bucksnort, but seemingly, if it's in their mods, suddenly it's okay. It's a masterpiece in design, even.

The original E4L4 had a trick pushwall as well, either you block the ammo or the health. If you play it straight, you can easily release both pushwalls, as in E4L2 (both my map set and the original). Was it mean? Yes. Can you get 100 % straight? Yes. I know I did when I played it through.

I'd have to look at Areyep's and Bucksnort's work (although I know the latter hides keys in secrets A LOT, but I don't know if they are ever secrets where you can push the wrong wall and block access permanently to the keys). Actually I can say a little for Areyep because I have played End of Destiny and cannot remember any necessary item or key hidden in a secret, let alone a secret you can permanently block off. (I really need to play the two versions of Spear Resurrection, on the other hand, as well as I know he did E2 in the DHW Wolf3D set!) I think TC's like Spear Resurrection and End of Destiny are among my favorite kinds not just because of their excellent quality, but because they use virtually no original resources and still they manage to feel very much like what could have been a game in the Wolfenstein series. This is getting OT though - so to get back on track:

Your examples of ID Software doing it are not valid because in the case of both E4L2 and E4L4, even if you messed up these secrets (or series of secrets), you were blocking off access to items that are not needed to just simply finish the level (at any score ratio). It is perfectly proper to make a situation where a wrong move can lead to it becoming impossible to thoroughly explore or access an optional area, even if the player consequently cannot receive 100% ratios, because it is still possible to get to the elevator and move on to the next level, which is the one and only thing you HAVE to be able to do to win in Wolfenstein 3D (without cheating). Right off my head, there is another example on the original E3L7 where you can make the secret exit (and that behemoth maze prior to it) permanently inaccessible by pushing a wall the wrong way, but again, you can still just go to the normal exit and proceed to E3L8.

The one and only level in the original Wolfenstein 3D in which it is possible to make the level in-completable is E4L7, but you are much less likely for that to actually happen, because firing in the first room will alert a series of guards in which you can easily kill one in the locked door that it is possible to block off access to the key for (or just dash through the door when it's open). In your E4L4, the floor codes are different, so you MUST find that key and if you push the wrong wall there is NO other way you can get through the level. While in the original E4L7, it is actually rather hard to not realize you can very easily shortcut finding that key completely simply by making a shot in the first room and attacking the guards that follow.

In short, generally making it possible to completely block off access to an area is acceptable whenever it is not a necessary area to finish the level, or there is a very easy alternative (original E4L7) which more or less makes it not a necessary area, but it is NOT acceptable if it is impossible (or requires an inordinately extreme amount of skill/luck/trick performance) to even finish the level without successfully accessing the area in question.

I don't understand why you want to make such as big fuss out of it. There have been many mods where I've screwed up and have had to start over, because of blocking either a way out of a larger pushwall area, or not choosing my pushwalls 'correctly'. I'm not sure I'll do anything like it again, it apparently being the worst thing on the face of the earth and all, but Christ! Calling it 'acceptable' or 'not acceptable' is silly. A map is a map, people should be allowed to make whatever the hell they want, no matter if it lacks quality, steals graphics or nicks whole maps.

Hi Joel!

Chokster37 wrote:

WolfForever wrote:Your examples of ID Software doing it are not valid because in the case of both E4L2 and E4L4, even if you messed up these secrets (or series of secrets), you were blocking off access to items that are not needed to just simply finish the level (at any score ratio). It is perfectly proper to make a situation where a wrong move can lead to it becoming impossible to thoroughly explore or access an optional area, even if the player consequently cannot receive 100% ratios, because it is still possible to get to the elevator and move on to the next level, which is the one and only thing you HAVE to be able to do to win in Wolfenstein 3D (without cheating). Right off my head, there is another example on the original E3L7 where you can make the secret exit (and that behemoth maze prior to it) permanently inaccessible by pushing a wall the wrong way, but again, you can still just go to the normal exit and proceed to E3L8.

The one and only level in the original Wolfenstein 3D in which it is possible to make the level in-completable is E4L7, but you are much less likely for that to actually happen, because firing in the first room will alert a series of guards in which you can easily kill one in the locked door that it is possible to block off access to the key for (or just dash through the door when it's open). In your E4L4, the floor codes are different, so you MUST find that key and if you push the wrong wall there is NO other way you can get through the level. While in the original E4L7, it is actually rather hard to not realize you can very easily shortcut finding that key completely simply by making a shot in the first room and attacking the guards that follow.

In short, generally making it possible to completely block off access to an area is acceptable whenever it is not a necessary area to finish the level, or there is a very easy alternative (original E4L7) which more or less makes it not a necessary area, but it is NOT acceptable if it is impossible (or requires an inordinately extreme amount of skill/luck/trick performance) to even finish the level without successfully accessing the area in question.

I know people who have played E4L7 and got stuck (saving their game after pressing the secret passage wrong). I think most people don't realize you can shoot the guard in the locked door to keep it open when exploring, at least their first time playing it. And your comment about Thomas's E4L4 is incorrect, you CAN beat the level without getting the key. You can lure a guard towards the end of the right hallway, then run to the dog room and the guard will try to reach you by opening the silver doors (or do this strategy from the opposite direction). In hindsight, Thomas's version is better because you don't have to go through 7 levels all over again (instead of 4) if you screw it up. Of course, you could just press MLI (or Tab-H until you die) if you didn't save your game at the start of the level. This is a lesson for the player, not the creator.

Small logic flaw.

In E4L7, all you must do is shoot, and the guards will open the door and come pouring in at you.

In Thomas' E4L4, the "lure a guard" idea, while possible, is VERY tricky and I don't think most authors even know that trick can be used. Of course I know you do, since it's in E6L3 of the Melee set, which is by you. But even there, you ONLY make the player do it if they want to fully explore (not just simply complete) the level, and given how tricky you can be with your maps, that to me is an indication that you clearly know this trick should never be (or possibly be) required for anything that must be done to finish a level.

Bottom line is this, it's only one level out of 60, it's not that serious, and certainly not the issue that is going to make me say the set sucks instead of saying it rocks. In other words, not something I want to keep arguing about, as it doesn't really even deserve much of an argument to begin with. But I honestly don't think there is any way to justify this mapping move, either.

Time to move this topic on!

Here's hoping for strength to pull off a full Spear set one day.

when i look at screenshoot above (E4M4), i like it. The design is no so complicated.

The screenshot makes me somehow want to revert to the original MAPDATA file. After all these years, I've used the same customized MAPDATA which is a little more slick and bold. The rough index on the screenshot, not grouping the wall patches by their appearance and similarity, but by their appearance within the VSWAP is just crazy. But I like the look of this map as well. BJ Rowan has always been a huge inspiration for my wood panel levels, also with an addition of daylight landscape. Those things go well hand in hand, I think. Looking at the first level in Spear, I've always wondered why they used gray slime and daylight landscape (even with vines) --- in my world, they just don't fit. Gray slime and vines have got night time written all over them.

Thomas wrote:Think I'm gonna put plenty of these in my upcoming Spear map set!

Please no - especially not just to spite.

WolfForever wrote:

Chokster37 wrote:

WolfForever wrote:Your examples of ID Software doing it are not valid because in the case of both E4L2 and E4L4, even if you messed up these secrets (or series of secrets), you were blocking off access to items that are not needed to just simply finish the level (at any score ratio). It is perfectly proper to make a situation where a wrong move can lead to it becoming impossible to thoroughly explore or access an optional area, even if the player consequently cannot receive 100% ratios, because it is still possible to get to the elevator and move on to the next level, which is the one and only thing you HAVE to be able to do to win in Wolfenstein 3D (without cheating). Right off my head, there is another example on the original E3L7 where you can make the secret exit (and that behemoth maze prior to it) permanently inaccessible by pushing a wall the wrong way, but again, you can still just go to the normal exit and proceed to E3L8.

The one and only level in the original Wolfenstein 3D in which it is possible to make the level in-completable is E4L7, but you are much less likely for that to actually happen, because firing in the first room will alert a series of guards in which you can easily kill one in the locked door that it is possible to block off access to the key for (or just dash through the door when it's open). In your E4L4, the floor codes are different, so you MUST find that key and if you push the wrong wall there is NO other way you can get through the level. While in the original E4L7, it is actually rather hard to not realize you can very easily shortcut finding that key completely simply by making a shot in the first room and attacking the guards that follow.

In short, generally making it possible to completely block off access to an area is acceptable whenever it is not a necessary area to finish the level, or there is a very easy alternative (original E4L7) which more or less makes it not a necessary area, but it is NOT acceptable if it is impossible (or requires an inordinately extreme amount of skill/luck/trick performance) to even finish the level without successfully accessing the area in question.

I know people who have played E4L7 and got stuck (saving their game after pressing the secret passage wrong). I think most people don't realize you can shoot the guard in the locked door to keep it open when exploring, at least their first time playing it. And your comment about Thomas's E4L4 is incorrect, you CAN beat the level without getting the key. You can lure a guard towards the end of the right hallway, then run to the dog room and the guard will try to reach you by opening the silver doors (or do this strategy from the opposite direction). In hindsight, Thomas's version is better because you don't have to go through 7 levels all over again (instead of 4) if you screw it up. Of course, you could just press MLI (or Tab-H until you die) if you didn't save your game at the start of the level. This is a lesson for the player, not the creator.

In Thomas' E4L4, the "lure a guard" idea, while possible, is VERY tricky and I don't think most authors even know that trick can be used. Of course I know you do, since it's in E6L3 of the Melee set, which is by you. But even there, you ONLY make the player do it if they want to fully explore (not just simply complete) the level, and given how tricky you can be with your maps, that to me is an indication that you clearly know this trick should never be (or possibly be) required for anything that must be done to finish a level.

I found that trick out from EoD.

I thought guards couldn't open locked doors in EoD.

Hi Edwin!

I remember a secret area with a window, and the guard has to see you, and open a locked door, and I had to jam the door and go in for the key.

Chokster37 wrote:@WolfForever: Good points. I guess the main problem with E4L7 is if you already killed all the guards in the first room, then saved your game (most likely situation I think). Once you realize the "trick" though, and that it intentionally exists to help you, playing the level is fun. I'm usually cautious about going through locked doors without a key (I disliked how Blake Stone had all those "one-way" doors, as you never know if you'll walk into a trap full of enemies or a room where you can't get out of). I'd say the E4L7 secret passage to the key is a lot more deceiving, as you just want to push the incorrect "banner" wall right away and mess it up, whereas in Thomas's level it's a 50/50 chance. My first thought when looking at the your map screenshot was "Hahah awesome tribute! It's like the health/ammo secret on the original E4L4 but to a whole new level!!!". Being someone who likes to play entire episodes/games without saving, I could see how all of these things could be annoying too though (although I know better than to do this "no saving spree" for some mods like Poet's and Temporary Insanity).

Thomas wrote:I thought guards couldn't open locked doors in EoD.

I think EOD uses the "invisible blocking tiles" in places, so that guards can't walk past certain areas/lines, which might apply to a few (but not all) locations where there are locked doors; similar to in Ipank7000's "15 Master Levels". Just guessing though, I haven't really played much past level 2 (still waiting for a non-buggy/complete SDL version... addons with multi-floor/ceiling textures and snow etc. play quite poorly for me in DosBox). The original Spear: Resurrection, on the other hand, I can say for sure, has no "invisible blocking tiles" at all.

I'd love a version of Wolfenstein that Temporary Insanity even runs properly with. Some of the bugs it took advantage of were later fixed.

Sets like Poet's and TI are clearly designed to be tricky and full of puzzles though. While others like this (and most sets out there, really) are just to provide a casual, classic Wolfenstein experience.

I remember the following from TI, by the way:

1) There was a map where every wall was a decoration.
2) There were a couple maps where your gun would fire uncontrollably.
3) There were some insane pushwall sequences. Even though the most insane was a secret (exit?) (I think).
4) One level was timed. Parts of it were optional however, I seem to remember.
5) All those silver keys - and who would think taking a key could possibly cause harm? It can!
6) No clipping on a few occurences.
7) Hitler appeared early but I could never kill him.
A stealth mission. I finally saw some health and ammo but could never find out how to reach it.
9) Pushwalls that moved when I stepped over something.
10) And I could never see the map of the last level!

Spark any nostalgic recalls/memories?

Still, it only took one certain level of yours to virtually trump everything TI did combined, 69 times over - it is the BEST MAP EVER!!!!!

doomjedi : Did you finish this and if so, final thoughts?