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    Dark_wizzie
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    Religion

    Post by Dark_wizzie on Sat Sep 22, 2012 1:14 am

    First topic message reminder :

    Hi, wuts dis?


    Last edited by Dark_wizzie on Fri Jul 11, 2014 2:47 pm; edited 8 times in total



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    stathmk
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    I have to go to a meeting.

    Post by stathmk on Thu Jul 10, 2014 3:01 pm

    [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:About the supposed similarities of Krishna, Mithra and Horus to Jesus: what is the source? I'd like a reference to actual religious texts, not a Youtube video.
    I have to go to a meeting.  Remind me to respond overnight or tomorrow.  I'm half-finished typing my response in Microsoft Word.

    serpens
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    Re: Religion

    Post by serpens on Thu Jul 10, 2014 4:14 pm

    Fine, I'm waiting. In the meantime, a quick search through The Egyptian Book of the Dead using the keyword 'Horus' didn't seem to bring up anything resembling the claims in the OP. Here's what the translator writes about Horus:

    Heru or Horus, the sun-god, was originally a totally distinct god from Horus, the son of Osiris and Isis, but from the earliest times it seems that the two gods were confounded, and that the attributes of the one were ascribed to the other; the fight which Horus the sun-god waged against night and darkness was also at a very early period identified with the combat between Horus, the son of Isis, and his brother Set. The visible emblem of the sun-god was at a very early date the hawk is, which was probably the first living thing worshipped by the early Egyptians; already in the pyramid texts the hawk on a standard is used indiscriminately with ### to represent the word "god." The principal forms of Horus the sun-god, which probably represent the sun at various periods of the day and night, are:--Heru-ur ({Greek A?rwh`rei), "Horus the Great"; Heru-merti, "Horus of the two eyes," i.e., of the sun and moon; Heru-nub, "the golden Horus"; Heru-khent-khat; Heru-khent-an-maa, "Horus dwelling in blindness"; Heru-khuti, "Horus of the two horizons," the type of which on earth was the Sphinx; Heru-sam-taui, "Horus the uniter of the north and south"; Heru-hekenu, " Horus of Heken"; and Heru-behutet, "Horus of Behutet." The cippi of Horus, which became so common at a late period in Egypt, seem to unite the idea of the physical and moral conceptions of Horus the sun-god and of Horus the son of Osiris and Isis.

    Horus, the son of Osiris and Isis, appears in Egyptian texts usually as Heru-p-khart, " Horus the child," who afterwards became the "avenger of his father Osiris," and occupied his throne, as we are told in many places in the Book of the Dead. In the pyramid texts the deceased is identified with Heru-p-khart, and a reference is made to the fact that the god is always represented with a finger in his mouth. The curious legend which Plutarch relates concerning Harpocrates and the cause of his lameness' is probably based upon the passage in the history of Osiris and Isis given in a hymn to Osiris of the XVIIIth dynasty.

    The issue was also briefly addressed by doomjedi in this post [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] but his query went seemingly unanswered.

    Dark_wizzie
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    Re: Religion

    Post by Dark_wizzie on Thu Jul 10, 2014 4:43 pm

    [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:Fine, I'm waiting. In the meantime, a quick search through The Egyptian Book of the Dead using the keyword 'Horus' didn't seem to bring up anything resembling the claims in the OP. Here's what the translator writes about Horus:

    Heru or Horus, the sun-god, was originally a totally distinct god from Horus, the son of Osiris and Isis, but from the earliest times it seems that the two gods were confounded, and that the attributes of the one were ascribed to the other; the fight which Horus the sun-god waged against night and darkness was also at a very early period identified with the combat between Horus, the son of Isis, and his brother Set. The visible emblem of the sun-god was at a very early date the hawk is, which was probably the first living thing worshipped by the early Egyptians; already in the pyramid texts the hawk on a standard is used indiscriminately with ### to represent the word "god." The principal forms of Horus the sun-god, which probably represent the sun at various periods of the day and night, are:--Heru-ur ({Greek A?rwh`rei), "Horus the Great"; Heru-merti, "Horus of the two eyes," i.e., of the sun and moon; Heru-nub, "the golden Horus"; Heru-khent-khat; Heru-khent-an-maa, "Horus dwelling in blindness"; Heru-khuti, "Horus of the two horizons," the type of which on earth was the Sphinx; Heru-sam-taui, "Horus the uniter of the north and south"; Heru-hekenu, " Horus of Heken"; and Heru-behutet, "Horus of Behutet." The cippi of Horus, which became so common at a late period in Egypt, seem to unite the idea of the physical and moral conceptions of Horus the sun-god and of Horus the son of Osiris and Isis.

    Horus, the son of Osiris and Isis, appears in Egyptian texts usually as Heru-p-khart, " Horus the child," who afterwards became the "avenger of his father Osiris," and occupied his throne, as we are told in many places in the Book of the Dead. In the pyramid texts the deceased is identified with Heru-p-khart, and a reference is made to the fact that the god is always represented with a finger in his mouth. The curious legend which Plutarch relates concerning Harpocrates and the cause of his lameness' is probably based upon the passage in the history of Osiris and Isis given in a hymn to Osiris of the XVIIIth dynasty.

    The issue was also briefly addressed by doomjedi in this post [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] but his query went seemingly unanswered.
    Yes, that's why I said I'll look into it. The issue doesn't matter at all in the long run, but it's still a good idea to doublecheck.



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    Re: Religion

    Post by Thomas on Thu Jul 10, 2014 8:18 pm

    I always found these stories incredible:

    [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

    [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

    My stance on belief/religion has always been neutral, so tales like these always cements my faith in the unknown. I respect and live by (as much as my instincts allow) the Christian set of values but not necessarily the Bible itself (never read it, really - had a kids' edition with lots of funny pictures though when I was younger), the whole anti-gay, anti-creativity thing they have going on. I don't think Jesus himself was the threat, it was his minions and interpreters over later, primitive decades - especially before the reformation.

    That being said, I did believe in God until I was about 13, which was very unusual in this part of the world and is even more to this day. I still get paranoid about it. For example, I cannot turn my middle finger against the sky! I just don't dare it. And what's the point anyway. Since when has hatred been a solution to any issue?

    I believe in love, and I believe in nature. Many times I'm superstitious like you won't believe. Karma plays its role as well. I think a bizarre mixture of Jesus Christ, Norse mythology and ancient aliens is my bag. There I said it lol.

    Dark_wizzie
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    Re: Religion

    Post by Dark_wizzie on Fri Jul 11, 2014 3:09 pm

    [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:Fine, I'm waiting. In the meantime, a quick search through The Egyptian Book of the Dead using the keyword 'Horus' didn't seem to bring up anything resembling the claims in the OP. Here's what the translator writes about Horus:

    Heru or Horus, the sun-god, was originally a totally distinct god from Horus, the son of Osiris and Isis, but from the earliest times it seems that the two gods were confounded, and that the attributes of the one were ascribed to the other; the fight which Horus the sun-god waged against night and darkness was also at a very early period identified with the combat between Horus, the son of Isis, and his brother Set. The visible emblem of the sun-god was at a very early date the hawk is, which was probably the first living thing worshipped by the early Egyptians; already in the pyramid texts the hawk on a standard is used indiscriminately with ### to represent the word "god." The principal forms of Horus the sun-god, which probably represent the sun at various periods of the day and night, are:--Heru-ur ({Greek A?rwh`rei), "Horus the Great"; Heru-merti, "Horus of the two eyes," i.e., of the sun and moon; Heru-nub, "the golden Horus"; Heru-khent-khat; Heru-khent-an-maa, "Horus dwelling in blindness"; Heru-khuti, "Horus of the two horizons," the type of which on earth was the Sphinx; Heru-sam-taui, "Horus the uniter of the north and south"; Heru-hekenu, " Horus of Heken"; and Heru-behutet, "Horus of Behutet." The cippi of Horus, which became so common at a late period in Egypt, seem to unite the idea of the physical and moral conceptions of Horus the sun-god and of Horus the son of Osiris and Isis.

    Horus, the son of Osiris and Isis, appears in Egyptian texts usually as Heru-p-khart, " Horus the child," who afterwards became the "avenger of his father Osiris," and occupied his throne, as we are told in many places in the Book of the Dead. In the pyramid texts the deceased is identified with Heru-p-khart, and a reference is made to the fact that the god is always represented with a finger in his mouth. The curious legend which Plutarch relates concerning Harpocrates and the cause of his lameness' is probably based upon the passage in the history of Osiris and Isis given in a hymn to Osiris of the XVIIIth dynasty.

    The issue was also briefly addressed by doomjedi in this post [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] but his query went seemingly unanswered.

    Serpens,
    I think it's more likely that the source I sourced was inaccurate with the whole Horus thing. Here's a page of comments you might find interesting though: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

    I don't think the charge could be made that Jesus was a direct rip-off of Horus but I think they share ideas that are common, but then again - It probably wasn't just those two religions... Ideas of resurrections? Salvation? These are ideas that are very old and every religion loves it.

    I understand the need to be as accurate as possible in a book. But there are so many pages and things that need to be fine tuned, it's very hard to double-check everything. I'm working on it though, and I think the core ideas are very good. Actually, I shouldn't be left so defensive... It was one mistake among hundreds of pages. But a mistake is a mistake and I'll look back at the book to see if that Horus mention is even in the book anymore. If you look at the original posting date of the thread, it was two years ago. I first started thinking about this stuff at... two years ago. Over time more and more arguments came in, along with it, a few more inaccurate ideas and facts, but all in all I think my case is much strengthened over time, not the other way around. Ultimately I don't care at all whether Jesus was ripped off of Horus. I care about whether there is a God and whether I am royally screwed in the afterlife, whether evolution is real, and what is or isn't moral. That was my intention when I set out on this task. But still, a mistake is a mistake.

    [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:I always found these stories incredible:

    [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

    [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

    My stance on belief/religion has always been neutral, so tales like these always cements my faith in the unknown. I respect and live by (as much as my instincts allow) the Christian set of values but not necessarily the Bible itself (never read it, really - had a kids' edition with lots of funny pictures though when I was younger), the whole anti-gay, anti-creativity thing they have going on. I don't think Jesus himself was the threat, it was his minions and interpreters over later, primitive decades - especially before the reformation.

    That being said, I did believe in God until I was about 13, which was very unusual in this part of the world and is even more to this day. I still get paranoid about it. For example, I cannot turn my middle finger against the sky! I just don't dare it. And what's the point anyway. Since when has hatred been a solution to any issue?

    I believe in love, and I believe in nature. Many times I'm superstitious like you won't believe. Karma plays its role as well. I think a bizarre mixture of Jesus Christ, Norse mythology and ancient aliens is my bag. There I said it lol.
    I think the Bible is a mishmash of a lot of violence, superstition, wrong science, and all of a sudden, forgiveness and floaty good stuff. It's the kind of thing that would make my head spin in confusion. Thou shall not kill... except the gazillion times God orders murder and killed the entire world. But YOU shouldn't kill! Except from this and this, in which case you should. Short paragraph on my thoughts on the Ten Commandments:

    So the first four out of five commandments are not about morality. Then God says to treat your parents nicely because you will be rewarded with land in the future. Don’t kill, don’t commit adultery, don’t steal, don’t bear false witness, and don’t want other people’s stuff. Is there anything profound here? No. Is there anything a kid wouldn’t know through a normal upbringing, be it theist or atheist? No. Is this the most condensed and useful set of rules possible from an omniscient being? No. Is this even outstanding compared to other religions? The founder of Jainism constructed a document of better morality than the Bible with a single sentence: Do not injure, oppress, enslave, insult, torment, torture, or kill any creature or living thing. Every single society had rules resembling commandments 6 through 10 because there are obvious biological and social reasons why murdering or stealing is problematic. A chimpanzee knows this. The rules in the Ten Commandments are not the most complete, up-to-date, profound, or even the best presented. Is there a clause on sexism? Child rape? Racism? Slavery?

    I mean, the Bible has good stuff in it. You're kindda bound to have that with such a long book. But why not just start from scratch, lol. Figure out what you think it moral and what is not and what to live by on your own. Clearly the origins are suspect and the book is flawed in many ways.
    I am not a superstitious person, and never really have been. I was the kid in second grade telling others that Santa probably doesn't exist. But I don't think my arguments were very convincing because I didn't change anybody's minds.  Very Happy  I believe in many things. I believe my name is Eric. I believe I live on earth. There are other beliefs I hold but I try to make sure they make sense, are logical, etc.



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