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    Worst retail Wolfenstein 3D based game

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    What's the worst Wolfesntein 3D game (not knockoff i.e. Blake Stone, Corr7, etc.) that sold for money?

    [ 0 ]
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    [ 1 ]
    17% [17%] 
    [ 4 ]
    67% [67%] 
    [ 1 ]
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    Total Votes: 6

    WolfForever
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    Worst retail Wolfenstein 3D based game

    Post by WolfForever on Mon Sep 17, 2012 10:16 pm

    Basically what the question says. I vote for SOD2: Return to Danger, and feel it is the worst by a fairly large margin. Even its mediocre (or at best lukewarm) "sequel" seemed to have a decent leap in terms of mapping quality.

    The real sequel to Spear of Destiny is Spear Resurrection, I don't doubt that at all. It was just 8 or 9 years to late! And then SOD3 should have either been Spear Ress. 10-year or End of Destiny. (SR10YR is like Ultimate Challenge is to Return to Danger in that it uses all the same resources, but improves level design (albeit this time already from a very high standard rather than a very low one) while EoD is the real and legitimate sequel.) I think any combo of these are what the mission packs for Spear should have been, they would have probably fairly easily become even better than the originals, IMO! Of course I'm not complaining about awesome freeware though, all the better for that. Smile

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    Re: Worst retail Wolfenstein 3D based game

    Post by WolfForever on Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:38 pm

    Return to Danger and Ultimate Challenge are the worst, but the former is exponentially worse than the later.

    Why? Well partly because it's got at least five levels you simply do not have to play at all. Okay, you have to play them, but almost EVERYTHING is optional. You can get more points to beat the par time that you'd get if you found everything. Minimally, Levels 7, 9, 11, 12, and 14 suffer this to an extreme, and it just isn't fun when a level's like that.

    Second, the need for secrets. Yes I know this didn't go away in Ultimate Challenge, at least not completely. But combined with the level design it's just a double whammy. There's even the ultimate no-no: you can forever block access to a necessary key on Level 17.

    Levels 5 and 8 feature large mandatory mazes. That just isn't fun. In Level 8 it's basically the whole level, no less!

    I don't hate EVERY map in RtD, but it's poor in so many ways. There isn't a map in Ultimate Challenge that I just hate. Every map tries to do something and succeeds at least in being a legitimate map. It's not worth money, it still has no effort to present the story or modify the exe besides just the new sprites and wells, and the mandatory secret sin this still there in a number of levels. It isn't the ID Software experience with Wolf3D and the first SoD. But there isn't one map that you can just easily and harmlessly complete in ten seconds or less. The designs of things actually hit the level of competency. The worst map in this pack is about as good/bad as the best from RtD. There are even some levels I'd venture to call legitimately good. No, not good enough for money out of the pocket, but get-the-job-done level certainly. And if it was a free third party mission I'd even lean towards recommending it. Not so with RtD. UC would be something that falls right in the middle of the top 500, IMO. But RtD could be buried, well, it wouldn't surprise me if it got in the bottom 100. It would surprise me if it didn't get close to that 400th spot down.

    Still, the real sequels to SoD, the ones done right, are SR (and its 10 year) and EOD. Now those are ones that if you paid some money for the disk, I don't think you'd be disappointed. SR and SR10YR would work fine to replace RtD and UC. They have the same features, but the later is bigger and better. Yet on the other hand, the earlier is already a masterpiece in and of itself. Since I doubt you could mod EOD back in the early-mid 90's, adjusting SR10YR to be a sequel story to SR would probably be the best bet. Now these are the *real* SoD sequels! And if FormGen was so savvy to change all the resources, clearly these fit the bill. There isn't one original resource left, and the new ones are SO much better and more serious than those of the mission packs.

    Thomas
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    Re: Worst retail Wolfenstein 3D based game

    Post by Thomas on Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:08 am

    I agree that Return to Danger is sucky-sucky compared to The Ultimate Challenge. I need to play both games in full some day, for now I've just played various levels, studied MapEdit layouts, seen the graphics and maybe hijacked them for some of my own stuff. I am a Wolfenstein 3D player to the bone, never really dug Spear of Destiny, but for me, Return to Danger takes the cake as being the worst retail Wolf ever.

    ronwolf1705
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    Re: Worst retail Wolfenstein 3D based game

    Post by ronwolf1705 on Wed Nov 14, 2012 4:28 am

    I would say the original Wolfenstein is more of an adventure, while SoD at times is more of an action game with the ridiculous amount of guards in levels. Not a bad thing per se, but I prefer the adventure in the six episodes, has more of a lasting effect. I have never played Return to Danger and The Ultimate Challenge myself, but I have seen Balames play those and they didn't look too great. So I can't really vote for this poll, but rest assured it would be one of those two.




    Thomas
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    Re: Worst retail Wolfenstein 3D based game

    Post by Thomas on Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:01 am

    SoD uses its excesses way too quickly. You get way too many different wall textures in the first level, the chain gun pops out of nowhere, the ammo boxes, the whole thing. The only thing reminiscent of Wolf is that the officer and mutant do not appear first thing, though they very likely could/should have.

    SoD also misses some of the original 'home-y' sprites from original Wolf (bed, stove, sink, utensils etc.) but from a mapper's point of view it can work that way too. I just think it's a little too obvious that something is missing.

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    The Ultimate Challenge

    Post by Guest on Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:33 am

    The Ultimate Challenge is the worst one for me. They should have used different bosses and enemies instead of the episode 2 Return To Danger bosses and enemies. At least they changed the spectre sprites. I am a fan of the lost episodes though. The lost episodes would have been better if they had used different enemies and bosses for each set of episodes.

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    Re: Worst retail Wolfenstein 3D based game

    Post by Thomas on Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:14 pm

    New enemies I can do without, but I agree - to use the same set of bosses twice is silly. It makes no sense. I do dig some of the graphics, however.

    WolferCooker
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    Re: Worst retail Wolfenstein 3D based game

    Post by WolferCooker on Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:02 pm

    Some of the sounds and sprites are pretty good, but WHY make all the weapons colored blue?

    Dark_wizzie
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    Re: Worst retail Wolfenstein 3D based game

    Post by Dark_wizzie on Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:22 pm

    Was Sod Mission pack 2 same as 3 but with different levels?



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    Re: Worst retail Wolfenstein 3D based game

    Post by WolferCooker on Wed Nov 14, 2012 3:05 pm

    As far I as know, yes Wizzie. I don't count them as canon though. I count AReyeP/MCS's Spear Resurrection and End of Destiny as the true sequels.

    WolfForever
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    Re: Worst retail Wolfenstein 3D based game

    Post by WolfForever on Wed Nov 14, 2012 3:15 pm

    I essentially view UC as just an add-on to RtD, like SR10YR is to SR. Of course both in the later series are FAR better than any of these Lost Episodes. But, taking raw map designs only (since everything else is the same), UC's levels do clearly show more effort at decent designs compared to RtD.

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    Re: Worst retail Wolfenstein 3D based game

    Post by Guest on Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:53 pm

    Hi Leon!


    Last edited by Chokster37 on Sat Feb 08, 2014 12:23 pm; edited 1 time in total

    WolfForever
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    Re: Worst retail Wolfenstein 3D based game

    Post by WolfForever on Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:39 pm

    RtD definitely has to be the one with the boxy design problem as well. Well technically every angle in Wolf3D is some multiple of 90 degrees, but RtD did use square or rectangle rooms a LOT.

    Re Levels 7, 9, 11, 12, 14 of RtD: You have to know where to go to get to the exit (it's not like it's right at the start or the only route you can take, i.e. the original E2L7). However, I bet every one of the levels is completable in 15 seconds or less if you know and take the direct route. If I recall it's something like this:

    Level 7: Leave start elevator, turn right, enter door at end of hall. Proceed through square room and go through door on opposite side of the one you came it. You'll be in an identical looking hall. Look on the left side for the exit.

    Level 9: Leave start elevator, turn left at first chance and proceed to door. When you get in the purple wall maze, turn left, then right. You should see the exit by now.

    Level 11: Leave start elevator, turn right when you have the choice. Follow the corridor to the end. Proceed through the somewhat circular room to the door on the opposite side. You'll be in a winding corridor just like the one you started in. Sure enough, the exit should appear to your left at some point when you follow the corridor.

    Level 12: Leave start elevator. Find the secret wall marked by the first mouse you see in that hallway. Push it and proceed beyond; you should see the exit on the left soon. (In this one, you do have to play for the secret exit, however. Even though you pushed a secret wall, it is NOT the secret exit.)

    Level 14: Follow only path you have to big white room which blocks in the middle. Look for mice on the side opposite the side you entered. They are pushwalls, and one of the leads straight to the exit. (Yes, another normal exit behind a secret.)

    WolfForever
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    Re: Worst retail Wolfenstein 3D based game

    Post by WolfForever on Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:51 pm

    (Split the post.)

    There really isn't one level I can think of in RtD that rises above pure mediocrity except maybe the two secret levels. OTOH the levels in UC have flaws, such as some with mandatory secrets, but they are all done competently. Definitely none of the "exit within 15 seconds" nonsense. I imagine it could have received a decent reputation if it had just been released as a freeware add-on at the time. You might even have fun at times, if you can look past the low production values. It is just astounding how horribly designed some (or even most) of the RtD levels are compared to any of the other commercial Wolf3D/SoD episodes, even including UC. It's like the designers didn't even try, totally did not know how to make reasonable levels, or just threw together some random thoughts (doing so poorly at that) and shoved the thing out the door. Or any combo of these. Its levels (with maybe an exception allowed for the secret ones) seem so half-assed in every way.

    About the original SoD, it does dump you in to a lot of things much quicker than Wolf3D, but it still passes easily with level design. And that is what matters most, by far. Bad levels, bad product. If you used RtD's levels unmodified in a mod, it would be poor. I don't care what other features the mod has. Period. End of sentence.

    On the other hand, good competent levels and you'd pretty much have to try to mess it up elsewhere to end up with a bad/mediocre overall product.

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