Wolf3d Haven Forum

Please log in or register. Smile
Wolf3d Haven Forum

A friendly Wolfenstein 3D community, about Wolfenstein 3D, the game that gave birth to first person shooters...


    Mapping: What I've Learned Over Time

    Share

    Dark_wizzie
    I am Death Incarnate!
    I am Death Incarnate!

    Male
    Number of posts : 5087
    Age : 22
    Location : USA or Tawain
    Job : Student, Part time Cactuar fanatic
    Hobbie : Planting Cactuars.
    Message : I made this forum when I was 13 High on Drugs
    Registration date : 2007-03-24

    Mapping: What I've Learned Over Time

    Post by Dark_wizzie on Mon Sep 10, 2012 3:32 pm

    I remember when I started playing Wolf3d (actually, I don't) at a very young age. While most people ran around playing with some action figures, I was feeling like I was top of the world, blowing Nazis away, spamming M-L-I. Anyways, I eventually found out I could edit my own maps when I was around 13... basically around the time that I joined DHW, I think. At the start the levels were simply edits of the original maps with many vines and bosses. Eventually it grew to a larger edit, and a larger edit, into me editing every corner of the whole entire level, hitting the max static objects cap very quickly. SDL really fixed things. If it weren't for that, I would not have made any maps after Super Haven Mapset I. Allowing myself to use more static objects means I could build larger maps with more atmosphere, since it requires more static objects. At first my mapping was pretty god-damned insane. There were mazes, holo-walls that led to mazes, and many difficult areas. Difficult was here to stay, but the mazes were not. Mazes suck, frankly. They are unrealistic and near-impossible to make without boring the player. At first I was obsessed with cramming in as many secrets as I can muster. I didn't set out to do that, it just sort of happened. I never put keys in secret areas because I know I hate it when people do that. Any secrets that are required are very obvious to prevent confusion, and always serves a purpose. It's not there just because. The most secret-laden-complex level I have ever created (and frankly, the most complex original mapset level I have ever seen in my entire life) is Nazi Base of Super Haven Mapset. I had to make a guide because of the many secrets, and in my opinion it rivals the Aardwolf maze.

    Eventually my mapping progressed and I decided to add some different textures in a room to spice things up. Ack really inspired me. Some people don't like his mapping, but I sure do. I like the design, the aesthetics, and it really drew me in. I had a few maps loaded one day when my brother walked across the room, and he asked me if I was doing art on my computer. My implementation of different wall textures was very sketchy in places. It looked like I desperately wanted different textures. Just because two textures are or similar color, it doesn't mean that they go along well together. In fact, usually the textures need to be of different color. Finding out what worked and what didn't was a trial and error kind of thing. I kept asking Brian for advice, but a lot of it I needed (and on some level, that's the way it ought to be) to figure it out on my own. Some things look good. Some do not.

    Mapping I find interesting because it is a style. It is almost like a fingerprint. If I know the mapper well enough, I can tell who made which map by scrolling through them on Chaosedit. Every level is unique, and every mapper is unique. As much as I like ack's mapping, I do scroll through maps made by others for ideas. It's always good to have a broad range of ideas and concepts that can be used. Making maps is a time-consuming process, and I always hesitate before the start of the next map, because I know that the audience is there, but always dwindling, and the map takes 5 hours to complete but 5 minutes to play.

    Eventually I got around to making SHS. I wanted a more unique name for my mapset and future mapsets, so I named it, 'Sod, Haven Style'. The difficulty got overboard, but I stand by some of my ideas at the time. If you think the game is too difficult on hardest, TURN DOWN THE DIFFICULTY. Some of us like a real challenge and are quite adept and Wolf3d and shooting games. To play the first level, die at the start on hardest and ragequit on my mapset in which I spent a long time to make, well, that's disappointing. In fact, I quite enjoyed the start of level 1 of SHS. It required some fast action at the start. The real problem I recognize with SHS at this point is the monotony of mutants everywhere. It's not a Nazi base, it's a friggin' mutant base with Nazis visiting. Mutants are the most difficult to kill, and Ubermutants are the most difficult bosses to kill in Sod, so I spammed them, every-which-way. Note: I DID play SHS hard version on hardest difficulty level starting each level with a pistol and eight rounds. I strongly believe Wolf3d needs a few good challenger mapsets. For SHS I started making better readmes, and took some lines from Ack's funny readmes. I posted a picture, made a cover page, etc. Starting with SHS I started experimenting with completely new mapping styles. Wastelands 1 is a great example. Before then, all mossy rooms were actually modified rectangular rooms. Wastelands 1 had very irregular walls. I'm not sure what clicked, but the level just really clicked into place for me. On other levels, I used some textures I do not see often in Sod mapsets, and I'm not sure why.

    This Spear turned out to be my final mapset. This Spear is taken from 'This Gun' and 'That Machinegun' from Fallout: New Vegas. I originally planned to make a That Wolf3d, but that never materialized. This Spear is the combined product of everything about map-making that I have learned over the years. Following all of my mapset's tradition, I scatter aardwolf signs in difficult to find secrets. Even while making the mapset, I learned things. I moved levels around to match the ceiling color, and I even recolored level 5. I later toned down the symmetry, because too much of it can be annoying. In my opinion, my mapping won't really get any better from here. Not necessarily because I've ascended into a mapping god, but because I don't think I am capable of better maps. This Spear featured more marching guards and more dogs. In the past I left dogs out because they use up valuable memory while being easy to kill, and I never added marching guards because they take a long time to add. But with This Spear, I wanted to go all out. I literally replaced my worst map of the mapset and made a new one. I used the same map ack made for SHS because 1) I really didn't feel like making maps that week, 2) almost nobody played ack's map since everybody ran for their lives from the difficulty of SHS, even on easy version, and 3) I wasn't quite sure how to make level 21 because I have never made it before. I tried to criss-cross Grey brick 1 and 2 for the subtle effect. Scavenger Hunt was the result of another experiment on the way I made maps. At the end of the day, I am satisfied knowing I got two Dome awards, and the public for the most part do like This Spear.

    That Wolf3d never finished because I don't have time. College starts. I did finish 2 levels, but they will never be played because nobody bothers to play mapsets with 2 maps in it.

    I prefer Chaosedit because of its functions, and 3d edit is useful because of the way I browse maps for ideas. I do use WDC for error-checking, and for that it is invaluable.

    What I usually end up doing, in attempt to get inspiration, I often browse through maps on Chaosedit, using 3d-edit to assist from time to time. Because of this, I can pretty much imagine what a level will be like simply from a map file. However, it's hard to imagine what the gameplay will be like since it is very difficult to figure out whether there is enough ammo or health, or too much ammo or health. It's also hard to figure out how the guards will react, so often-times it led to difficult maps and a lack of awareness on guards and how they affect gameplay.

    Because this is just a game from over a decade ago, and because of the way I took so many ideas from ack, I allow anybody to use my maps in any way, shape, or form should they choose to.

    I don't even know why I'm posting this, but by the time I asked myself why I was typing this, I was half-way done so I finished it anyways. Oh yeah, and I was trying out my new $130 keyboard. cyclops



    Wolf3d Haven
    Minute Logic Blog

    doomjedi
    Hardcore Wolfer
    Hardcore Wolfer

    Male
    Number of posts : 1331
    Age : 37
    Location : Israel
    Hobbie : Gaming and Modding, Pixel Art
    Registration date : 2007-03-26

    Re: Mapping: What I've Learned Over Time

    Post by doomjedi on Mon Sep 10, 2012 10:40 pm

    @Dark_wizzie wrote:I never put keys in secret areas because I know I hate it when people do that.
    I hate when mappers put enemies there as well.

    I prefer Chaosedit because of its functions, and 3d edit is useful because of the way I browse maps for ideas.
    I like it as well Smile
    The only problem is it's objnum limit, but it's no problem for mapsets.

    I don't even know why I'm posting this, but by the time I asked myself why I was typing this, I was half-way done so I finished it anyways. Oh yeah, and I was trying out my new $130 keyboard. cyclops
    Thank you for sharing this with us. Very insightful Smile

    linuxwolf
    Bring em' On!
    Bring em' On!

    Male
    Number of posts : 159
    Age : 34
    Location : Australia
    Hobbie : Games
    Registration date : 2011-12-25

    Re: Mapping: What I've Learned Over Time

    Post by linuxwolf on Tue Sep 11, 2012 12:18 am

    I'm a programmer now but before that I loved making maps for Doom and Quake 1/2. Reading your story makes me wish I made maps for Wolf3D as well.

    Thomas
    Veteran
    Veteran

    Male
    Number of posts : 1659
    Age : 25
    Registration date : 2007-09-13

    Re: Mapping: What I've Learned Over Time

    Post by Thomas on Tue Sep 11, 2012 12:34 am

    When I first started out mapping 8 years ago, I was still a big fan of Totengraeber and The Final Solution, those types of games. Pretty much any pre-Spear Resurrection (which wasn't that old back then) got me going.

    It was mainly huge, huge spaces with no action whatsoever. What excited me the most were the landscape sides, the day/night contrast and which block objects one could use to barricade it. Mainly tables, vases, plants, all unorthodox objects compared to what I do now (99 % of the time it's a column). That was the thing.

    Later I wanted to make big prisons, real big, which was somewhat a crossover of BJ Rowan and WSJ's take on dungeons and jail houses. That didn't work either. You see, stuff such as floor codes, deaf guard codes, marching enemies, enemy placement generally... It didn't come to me until I started 'Secrets of Offenbach' 6 months after I set out mapping.

    People such as Brian Lowe and Chris helped a great deal in getting me to know what people want/expect to play. ack even gave me a good tip which still stands: an opening level must capture the player, it really has to be good. To me, opening levels and final levels need to be directly memorable. Another no-go I learned then was also the fact that the cell textured blue stone must never be visible from more than one side. It just looks goofy. And it does!

    Secret levels are still a problem for me to make. It's never been my forte, so to speak.

    Mazes to me were always cheap excuses to get on in the game. I used them myself a couple of times for that sole purpose - that and having run out of inspiration.

    I tend to get bitchy if I see gray stone #2 and #3 next to each other. They don't fit!

    My future goal in mapping is to make what I've wondered about since having a thread going about it seven ought years ago (which of course turned into a sort-of argument between me, Deathshead and BrotherTank) --- having a level with marching guards all over it. Make a real chaos E6L6 style.

    I don't understand doom and Wizzie's criticism regarding pushwalls with enemies/keys in them. Personally, I've lately used pushwalls mainly as a knock-off, hiding only treasure, ammo and health in there and not making them interesting or anything - but I've grown weary of that. That's one thing I like about Bucksnort's mods - there are guards in there! It's not a 'world of its own', so to speak. I do love the E2L7 idea of the pushwall that opens the actual level, and the level being far removed from where you start - that gets me going. But keys and guards behind pushwalls is something that I love. Only thing that bothers me about that is when people forget to deaf-guard the guards in front, so that the passage cannot be opened correctly, and the level cannot be won (Mutantstein is a prime example there).

    And as a footnote, I started in September 2004 with a version of MapEdit called 4.2. I used that for the next three months till around Christmas/New Year's when Kyle Albert showed me MapEdit 8.4 - and I've used the patch (8.5) since then. I just can't let go. Each time I try a new editor, my immediate thought (and many thoughts thereafter) are based upon that this just isn't MapEdit.

    P.S. I love the original game and all, but I have no problem at all with having unlimited objects/guards, Spear walls and sprites and things like that. That would really spice things up, at least to get your creative juices going.

    Dark_wizzie
    I am Death Incarnate!
    I am Death Incarnate!

    Male
    Number of posts : 5087
    Age : 22
    Location : USA or Tawain
    Job : Student, Part time Cactuar fanatic
    Hobbie : Planting Cactuars.
    Message : I made this forum when I was 13 High on Drugs
    Registration date : 2007-03-24

    Re: Mapping: What I've Learned Over Time

    Post by Dark_wizzie on Tue Sep 11, 2012 1:26 am

    I forgot to mention level 16 of This Spear, the last 'mapping experiment' that I did. I took inspiration from ack, I saw the general structure of his level 16... Red brick structure inside the brown weave outside walls, and I made a different type of map. Results were quite nice, and it's one the levels I really like. I guess in a way I can say This Spear was one large mapping experiment! pirate



    Wolf3d Haven
    Minute Logic Blog

    Thomas
    Veteran
    Veteran

    Male
    Number of posts : 1659
    Age : 25
    Registration date : 2007-09-13

    Re: Mapping: What I've Learned Over Time

    Post by Thomas on Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:47 am

    I've done my share of 'experimenting' in 'Spearfishwolfbones'. I like the barrier of the maps, the gray sludge you can't penetrate, 'cause if you do, the game crashes. I barricaded it off, but it's still there (almost swallowing the sprites leaning up against it) and that was all fun.

    Brown weave ought to be grouped with brown concrete, stone wall with turquoise 'sky' on top and the like as being 'barrier' textures - the end of the end; the core of the world! lol!

    Dark_wizzie
    I am Death Incarnate!
    I am Death Incarnate!

    Male
    Number of posts : 5087
    Age : 22
    Location : USA or Tawain
    Job : Student, Part time Cactuar fanatic
    Hobbie : Planting Cactuars.
    Message : I made this forum when I was 13 High on Drugs
    Registration date : 2007-03-24

    Re: Mapping: What I've Learned Over Time

    Post by Dark_wizzie on Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:04 am

    Psychedelic floating blue sky makes everything better! High on Drugs



    Wolf3d Haven
    Minute Logic Blog

    Thomas
    Veteran
    Veteran

    Male
    Number of posts : 1659
    Age : 25
    Registration date : 2007-09-13

    Re: Mapping: What I've Learned Over Time

    Post by Thomas on Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:13 am

    Yeah, I always wanted a drug level where the parallax sky is turned pink or something like that... These days you may even be able to plant a floating pig up there!

    mmed
    Don't Hurt Me!
    Don't Hurt Me!

    Male
    Number of posts : 52
    Age : 22
    Registration date : 2012-07-25

    Re: Mapping: What I've Learned Over Time

    Post by mmed on Wed Sep 12, 2012 3:27 pm

    I can not believe all that you have written on the part of coding and maping .... Shocked Shocked
    and you are answered (no offense). Very Happy

    and when I ask something none answers Sad Sad
    they are rats .... Twisted Evil Evil or Very Mad
    (obviously in the coding portion) You idiot!

    Guest
    Guest

    Re: Mapping: What I've Learned Over Time

    Post by Guest on Wed Sep 12, 2012 4:20 pm

    Hi Ray!


    Last edited by Chokster37 on Sat Feb 08, 2014 12:07 pm; edited 1 time in total

    Dark_wizzie
    I am Death Incarnate!
    I am Death Incarnate!

    Male
    Number of posts : 5087
    Age : 22
    Location : USA or Tawain
    Job : Student, Part time Cactuar fanatic
    Hobbie : Planting Cactuars.
    Message : I made this forum when I was 13 High on Drugs
    Registration date : 2007-03-24

    Re: Mapping: What I've Learned Over Time

    Post by Dark_wizzie on Wed Sep 12, 2012 6:55 pm

    Chokster37 wrote:Great post Eric! This was one of the most interesting stories I've read on the forum. It brings me back lots of fun memories as well (I remember trying to cram stuff/secrets into every square of the map a lot too, which is always fun, and the joys of trying to create an epic dungeon level like Thomas. I had an interesting fascination with the landscape texture at first too, making lines or "tubes" of it felt like going through a parallel dimension or something - lol. Trying to make really challenging levels on Death Incarnate where the player has to keep shooting and running around like a madman to escape the enemies and find ammo/health is always a blast too). Man, this thread makes me want to make some more maps, FUN ones! Screw the guides/expectations/standards/copy Totengraeber BS, crazy maps with no rules and wacky and colourful structures are where the entertainment is at! Haha. I like your fingerprint/art philosophies. Smile

    Are you really from a place called Tawain, or did you mean Taiwan? Their garbage trucks seem pretty cool.

    Yeah, I lived in a place called Tawain, it's a few miles underground and we ride lava slides.

    No, lol. I spelled the name of my home country wrong. +1 pig



    Wolf3d Haven
    Minute Logic Blog

    Thomas
    Veteran
    Veteran

    Male
    Number of posts : 1659
    Age : 25
    Registration date : 2007-09-13

    Re: Mapping: What I've Learned Over Time

    Post by Thomas on Thu Sep 13, 2012 12:17 am

    Chokster37 wrote:Man, this thread makes me want to make some more maps, FUN ones! Screw the guides/expectations/standards/copy Totengraeber BS, crazy maps with no rules and wacky and colourful structures are where the entertainment is at!
    I feel that way too sometimes when I make a plain map, that I should experiment more rather than go through the same old scene. Messing with the floor codes, making doors with deaf guard codes in front of them invisible block objects, having dogs with strange floor codes so that you can only alarm them in certain places of the room you're in, that sort of thing. And the garbled image walls! Man, I had fun with that back in the early 'Abandon' stages. scared

    However, I would never go on mixing 'strange' levels in otherwise straight map sets. Somehow it seems out of balance. Well, there was this mod once with a pretty wacky level out of the blue. That worked pretty well! lol! But I can't think of anything else.

    I'm always green with envy every time I look up 'Temporary Insanity' by Nathaniel Rudiak-Gould. Always wanted to do something like that in a such manner that I could get away with it.

    mmed
    Don't Hurt Me!
    Don't Hurt Me!

    Male
    Number of posts : 52
    Age : 22
    Registration date : 2012-07-25

    Re: Mapping: What I've Learned Over Time

    Post by mmed on Thu Sep 13, 2012 2:55 pm

    Sure, sure, ignore my comment ... Rolling Eyes

    Dark_wizzie
    I am Death Incarnate!
    I am Death Incarnate!

    Male
    Number of posts : 5087
    Age : 22
    Location : USA or Tawain
    Job : Student, Part time Cactuar fanatic
    Hobbie : Planting Cactuars.
    Message : I made this forum when I was 13 High on Drugs
    Registration date : 2007-03-24

    Re: Mapping: What I've Learned Over Time

    Post by Dark_wizzie on Thu Sep 13, 2012 3:32 pm

    @mmed wrote:Sure, sure, ignore my comment ... Rolling Eyes
    This isn't the thread for coding or mapping help. I don't know coding apart from the very basics of the basics, so I can't help you.



    Wolf3d Haven
    Minute Logic Blog

    mmed
    Don't Hurt Me!
    Don't Hurt Me!

    Male
    Number of posts : 52
    Age : 22
    Registration date : 2012-07-25

    Re: Mapping: What I've Learned Over Time

    Post by mmed on Fri Sep 14, 2012 2:45 pm

    I did not mean you
    only the rats who know code and climbed some tutorials...
    They are also at the forum diehardwolfers

    mmed
    Don't Hurt Me!
    Don't Hurt Me!

    Male
    Number of posts : 52
    Age : 22
    Registration date : 2012-07-25

    Re: Mapping: What I've Learned Over Time

    Post by mmed on Fri Sep 14, 2012 2:48 pm

    I thought this forum was friendly
    as stated in its motto

    Dark_wizzie
    I am Death Incarnate!
    I am Death Incarnate!

    Male
    Number of posts : 5087
    Age : 22
    Location : USA or Tawain
    Job : Student, Part time Cactuar fanatic
    Hobbie : Planting Cactuars.
    Message : I made this forum when I was 13 High on Drugs
    Registration date : 2007-03-24

    Re: Mapping: What I've Learned Over Time

    Post by Dark_wizzie on Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:34 am

    @mmed wrote:I thought this forum was friendly
    as stated in its motto
    Once again, this is not the thread to talk about this. Others might not know the answer to your question, and not responding doesn't make them unfriendly. Often times, people get too many coding requests, and helping them with long lines of code ends up with the person that asked for help giving up halfway, wasting both people's time.

    On topic:
    I find that having the object limits removed it quite nice. I can finally add guards and objects like buckets, which help add atmosphere but were previously seen as 'un-unnecessary'. I think it gives maps a nice finishing touch,



    Wolf3d Haven
    Minute Logic Blog

    mmed
    Don't Hurt Me!
    Don't Hurt Me!

    Male
    Number of posts : 52
    Age : 22
    Registration date : 2012-07-25

    Re: Mapping: What I've Learned Over Time

    Post by mmed on Wed Sep 19, 2012 7:11 pm

    @mmed wrote:I did not mean you
    only the rats who know code and climbed some tutorials...
    They are also at the forum diehardwolfers

    I thought you understood this but apparently not....
    and the questions I asked are easy (I mean the code, which is very short)...


    Thomas
    Veteran
    Veteran

    Male
    Number of posts : 1659
    Age : 25
    Registration date : 2007-09-13

    Re: Mapping: What I've Learned Over Time

    Post by Thomas on Thu Sep 20, 2012 12:12 am

    Oh, stop being such an old woman. Ask your questions clear and fair, and sit back and wait. That's just how it is.

    mmed
    Don't Hurt Me!
    Don't Hurt Me!

    Male
    Number of posts : 52
    Age : 22
    Registration date : 2012-07-25

    Re: Mapping: What I've Learned Over Time

    Post by mmed on Thu Sep 20, 2012 8:59 am

    @Thomas wrote:Oh, stop being such an old woman. Ask your questions clear and fair, and sit back and wait. That's just how it is.

    as you want ..
    as openGL placed in SDL??
    as I can make maps in 128x128?? (I made ​​but has bugs ..)

    there you have it as clear as possible

    insurrectionman
    Freshmen
    Freshmen

    Male
    Number of posts : 12
    Age : 25
    Location : USA
    Job : Web Developer
    Hobbie : Wolf3D, Programming, Landscaping/Remodeling
    Registration date : 2007-03-25

    Re: Mapping: What I've Learned Over Time

    Post by insurrectionman on Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:16 pm

    I have been more of a programmer than a mapper in Wolf3D. I always have a view of going big right away. I shadowed out any starting maps that I worked on in vanilla Wolf3D. I hope now with time that I can begin to make challenging maps, ones that keep a Wolf3D feel, yet provide something new with every flip of the elevator switch.

    I've only played a few mods and phenomenal ones at that. They inspire me to create something new and out of the ordinary. In the time I've been modding, I have made 1 1/2 mods that the public have seen, but I take from that time, the experience and the community that I have seen, the help I've returned back in hopes to see my ideas see light in subtle ways.

    I think seeing team efforts with mixed maps and ideas gives a whole new variety and talent of maps and gameplay. When it comes down to it, think of it for maps, graphics, or anything: "When you give someone a 64x64 canvas to work with, it is amazing how many different kinds of art can be made from it."

    Sponsored content

    Re: Mapping: What I've Learned Over Time

    Post by Sponsored content Today at 4:51 am


      Current date/time is Thu Sep 29, 2016 4:51 am