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    SonderKommando Revolt

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    Tragos2d
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    SonderKommando Revolt

    Post by Tragos2d on 2012-08-25, 05:16

    Regardless of the controversy around this MOD it looked very awesome. How can anyone seriously confuse this as a concentration camp simulator or Antisemitism? If so they're a complete idiot! But the world is full of morons so it doesn't surprise me. I say release it and let the internet decide it's fate.

    Just remember that once DOOM was blamed for the columbine incident. (Doom the murder simulator! YAY!) Yeah, because DOOM is exactly like real life! Excuse me while I guzzle down a 12 pack of red-bull so I may run 60mph while simultaneously dodging monsters who are throwing fireballs and trying to eat me.

    A MOD featuring the chance to play as a concentration camp victim/survivor is both spooky and original. I can't think of anyone better deserving to slap around a Nazi? You can't change the fact that SonderKommando Revolt is based on an actual historic event. If anything it perseveres the memory of these people and not in a demeaning way whatsoever. That's fine if you don't like history but these events did happen so get over it.

    I say we petition for the release of this fine Wolf3d mod! It deserves recondition and praise for what it is and not what some backward rednecks, religious zealots or trolls make try and portray it as. DoomJedi and everyone else involved please reconsider and release this project! You have my support.

    Related articles:
    http://doomjedi.page.tl/Image-Gallery/kat-5-5.htm

    http://wolfsource.dugtrio17.com/wiki/index.php?title=SonderKommando_Revolt

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    Re: SonderKommando Revolt

    Post by WolfForever on 2012-08-25, 05:58

    I can speak for doomjedi that it WILL NOT EVER be released. Sad At least for as long as he has any part in the community, and probably not even thereafter because releasing it publicly against his will just because he won't catch it would be incredibly dishonest and disrespectful. What a shame, but I know it for a fact. However, the same team is working on the Batman series of mods, and hopefully there's more coming after that! Smile

    It all comes down to this: the mod is gone, it's a done deal, but at least it looks like the community has learned its lesson.

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    Re: SonderKommando Revolt

    Post by Tragos2d on 2012-08-25, 07:12

    I suggested nothing of the sort! That is why I named DoomJedi in the post above. I would not want anyone to go against his wishes or betray his trust. CERTAINLY NOT! I only asked those involved to collectivity reconsider releasing the mod.

    It's a real shame that an original mod built around historic events will never see the light of day because of some unwanted attention. Either way I commend those involved for there efforts. What about releasing the resources such as the art files? Would that be alright with the crazies?

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    Re: SonderKommando Revolt

    Post by WolfForever on 2012-08-25, 07:23

    I agree, but doomjedi has made it very clear he isn't pulling the trigger. And yes it is a shame, given there probably isn't a singlemember in the community that thinks it would be risky, other than Doomjrdi himself. But that's life. Nonetheless, if you want to petition, go ahead, just don't expect to defeat his will easily or at all on said matter.

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    Re: SonderKommando Revolt

    Post by doomjedi on 2012-08-25, 09:18

    @Tragos2d wrote:Regardless of the controversy around this MOD it looked very awesome.
    Thank you very much Smile
    Regardless of the rest of my reply - I sincerely preciate people loving "Sonder", supporting it and showing never-dying interest to play it.
    It's the best reward any modder can dream of.

    Which is at the same time making me painful "spike" each time, for those people who are not be able to actually play it.
    Cancelling the public release was not a "cold" decision on my part, I'm still a human, and the cancellation was very hard on me too, and the mod wouldn't be cancelled if the other alternatives weren't even harder for me.
    I made the mod with every (original) intention for people to play it, I've put my heart and soul into it, and 4 years of my life.

    How can anyone seriously confuse this as a concentration camp simulator or Antisemitism?
    And yet - they did. Go figure Smile

    If so they're a complete idiot!
    No, let's not say that...they just voiced an opinion about type of Art they don't understand. But yes, some of them were indeed morons that are not smarter than Corrida's bull reacting to red blanket, or Pavlov's dog.

    I say release it and let the internet decide it's fate.
    Well, it's hard for me to find what to say beyond what I've said in Dean's blog interview. Everything I had to say - I said there and I don't want to repeat myself.
    http://deans-wolf-blog.blogspot.co.il/2012/01/wolfer-q-ian-summerfield-little.html

    Just remember that once DOOM was blamed for the columbine incident.
    "Doom" had a company of people "splitting the fire between them"....here, despite it being a team work - all the fire went to me personally (including reaching my "real life" personal workplace, by Boss, etc...)- and it was way too much for one person to handle. If the rest of the team would take a stand and take some of the fire on them too - the result might have been different. But it was all "DoomJedi against the World".
    Also Doom got the fire after it was already released, so it was too late to cancel.

    Excuse me while I guzzle down a 12 pack of red-bull so I may run 60mph while simultaneously dodging monsters who are throwing fireballs and trying to eat me.
    Yeah, it reminds me a reporter telling me that in the real revolt only 18 nazis were killed - and how many nazis I have in my mod and why it's not the exact number Smile

    A MOD featuring the chance to play as a concentration camp victim/survivor is both spooky and original. I can't think of anyone better deserving to slap around a Nazi? You can't change the fact that SonderKommando Revolt is based on an actual historic event. If anything it perseveres the memory of these people and not in a demeaning way whatsoever. That's fine if you don't like history but these events did happen so get over it.
    I fully agree.
    But yet plot-wise it takes maybe an inspiration from real event - but our plot has nothing to do with the way the "real event" played out - so it's a fictional "alternative history" mod actually.
    We never claimed to recreate actual events.

    I say we petition for the release of this fine Wolf3d mod!
    Well, good luck with thaaaaaaat.... jocolor


    Last edited by doomjedi on 2012-08-25, 09:26; edited 2 times in total

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    Re: SonderKommando Revolt

    Post by Dark_wizzie on 2012-08-25, 09:21

    @doomjedi wrote:

    If so they're a complete idiot!
    No, let's not say that...they just voiced an opinion about type of Art they don't understand. But yes, some of them were indeed morons that are not smarter than Corrida's bull reacting to red blanket, or Pavlov's dog.


    If somebody is going to voice very strong accusations towards something and they don't bother to understand it, THEY ARE IDIOTS. You just proved his point.



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    Re: SonderKommando Revolt

    Post by doomjedi on 2012-08-25, 09:36

    DoomJedi and everyone else involved please reconsider and release this project!
    "Everybody else" were never against the release. Cancellation was fully my decision. And it was a hard one for me to go against the team...but it was something I had to do to keep my sanity.
    So I'm your "address" Smile

    I would not want anyone to go against his wishes or betray
    Thank you for the respect. I preciate it.

    What about releasing the resources such as the art files? Would that be alright with the crazies?
    I have released plenty of artpacks in the past. Beside "Femstein"s female, I never saw my released art used in other mods - which doesn't add to my motivation to release artpacks...
    If someone likes a particular Sonder art (and that art is not too "Holocaustic") - he can PM me to ask for (credited) use.

    BTW I can reveal that I re-used some of "Sonder" art in "Batman vs Bane" (especially some of the textures - walls, floors, ceilings), and those are free for (credited) modding use.
    Also I reused the "sewer theme" from "Warsaw" (aka "Sonder 2") - and I plan to re-use some of "Sonder" art in future mods as well - the non-Holocaustic ones of cause- and only where they fit.

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    Re: SonderKommando Revolt

    Post by Metalor on 2012-08-25, 17:42

    @doomjedi wrote:http://deans-wolf-blog.blogspot.co.il/2012/01/wolfer-q-ian-summerfield-little.html

    I know this is off topic, but if that blog post is about DoomJedi, then why is MY name on that link? Neutral

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    Re: SonderKommando Revolt

    Post by Tragos2d on 2012-08-25, 19:13

    That blog outlines exactly what Sonder "is" and "ISN'T".

    The internet is archived information. People can twist things all they want for some sort of sick private agenda but ultimately the internet will archive and reveal the truth.

    1. Sonder is a MOD for Wolfenstein.
    2. Wolf 3d is a game that involved the protagonist fighting Nazi's.
    (Superman and Captain American have both fought Nazi's in comic books!)
    3. Genocide did happen in WW2. Deal with it.

    I can see how Genocide is sensitive subject but it has happened all throughout human history involving every race of mankind and not only in WW2. It is still happening today! Injustices and turmoil are illustrated through both our art and culture in many various ways. Without preserving history and art (Yes, game design and modding I consider an ART) humanity is doomed to repeat its mistakes. If enough people can back DoomJedi I think it could be released. I think stupid people will always be the majority in this world but 1 smart person is worth a 100 idiots.

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    Re: SonderKommando Revolt

    Post by doomjedi on 2012-08-25, 19:22

    The problem was that it didn't depict nazi killing jews - but a jew killing nazis...some people saw it as wrong potrayal as who where the victims and who were the agressors...

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    Re: SonderKommando Revolt

    Post by Tragos2d on 2012-08-25, 19:43

    You could make the same wrong analysis of this:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Escape_%28film%29

    That defies even the most basic logic. Clearly prisoners are not the aggressors, instead this is a case of survival and is representative of the human desire to fight for freedom against tyranny. Movies and video games are full of historical inaccuracies and less than stellar portrayal of real life. But isn't that in essence what makes a good story? Exaggerating certain truths merely for entertainment is meant to engage the reader.

    What about the remake of Inglorious Bastards? One hell of a good movie, rarely has a movie made me so tense! A very misguided soul could argue it portrays the Jews as the aggressors. Poor little old Hitler was wanted to watch a movie about a war hero and instead he got riddled with bullets and the entire German high command was burned alive! Alternate reality or history movies are one of my favorite obscure genres. They should only be meant to entertain and educate instead of being scrutinized under the guise they are immoral or in some way antisemitic because you happen to dislike stories that change real life events? It's a story meant to entertain! Much like Sonder is only a Wolf3d project that borrowed elements from a tragic real life event. If only more Wolf3d mods were so deep!

    For whatever exists people will complain about it:
    http://forum.objectivismonline.com/index.php?showtopic=15426&st=100


    Someone twisting or arguing about a Wolf3d MOD is perhaps one of the silliest things I have ever heard. Anyone who was involved in harassing DoomJedi should be ashamed of themselves and go buy a screw driver. Because obviously they have a few screws loose that need tightening. It's not you fault that someone cannot understand a certain medium of art.

    It's just as bad as religious zealot arguing and killing each other over who's imaginary friend is better. When if you look at the core of every religion most are identical to one another. They're too stupid to realize they are pawns in a deadly game representative of mankind's greed and evil intentions. Killing innocents in the name of religion changes nothing for you in death. But if you are so brain washed to believe something better awaits then I pity you. I'm not saying all religion is bad but unless you keep things in perspective you are asking for trouble.

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    Re: SonderKommando Revolt

    Post by Guest on 2012-08-26, 01:52

    Hi Jesus!


    Last edited by Chokster37 on 2014-02-08, 21:05; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: SonderKommando Revolt

    Post by Dark_wizzie on 2012-08-26, 04:47

    @doomjedi wrote:The problem was that it didn't depict nazi killing jews - but a jew killing nazis...some people saw it as wrong potrayal as who where the victims and who were the agressors...
    If we have a video games where Americans kills Germans, could this been seen as a wrong portrayal of Americans starting WW2?

    Sounds like Wolfenstein 3-d to me.



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    Re: SonderKommando Revolt

    Post by doomjedi on 2012-08-26, 07:22

    The main reason "Sonder" can't be released - is because there is no way I know to effectively disconnect me from the project, so media will have other address to turn to.
    And I had my "fun" time with the media, and don't want to deal with it again.
    And this is known as "DoomJedi's project", and I'm sure no reporter was able to name nick of any other team member at the time.

    If we have a video games where Americans kills Germans
    Don't compare jewish sensitivity of the Holocaust subject to that of the americans towards WWII...with all due respect. Holocaust is all about victimhood. WWII is about bravery and such.

    The only reason this shouldn't be public is if you think it's not good enough in terms of quality, or if you're trying to make a profit off of it using someone else's material.
    No and no Smile So there must be more "reasons" to that Smile

    If a million people told you to go jump off a cliff, would you follow their orders too DoomJedi?
    This is different, and I'm very far from being conformist.
    This is much more "real" and complicated that just disobeying someone's request. How real? - I think I've explained on that blog.


    Last edited by doomjedi on 2012-08-26, 08:17; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: SonderKommando Revolt

    Post by Dark_wizzie on 2012-08-26, 08:14

    @doomjedi wrote:

    If we have a video games where Americans kills Germans
    Don't compare jewish sensitivity of the Holocaust subject to that of the americans towards WWII...with all due respect. Holocaust is all about victimhood. WWII is about bravery and such.

    Then they think with emotions, not logic. Not good.



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    Re: SonderKommando Revolt

    Post by doomjedi on 2012-08-26, 08:22

    Emotions - are what make you react strongly to a form of Art you don't even understand, even if it's pixelated mod of 20-year old game.
    Emotion - associates everything with itself, every "reminder". It feels like it "owns" the whole theme, the whole issue...and colors it with one/same emotion for every reminder of it.
    That's why I mentioned Pavlov's dog. No brains, logic, reason and involved between seeing a "stimulation" and giving an emotional reaction to it, always the same one. Even on totally different cases. A reflex.

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    Re: SonderKommando Revolt

    Post by Akuul on 2012-08-26, 11:34

    I think the world is not ready to see the game "SonderKommando Revolt".
    Too many freaks in this world-like "Pussy Riot".

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    Re: SonderKommando Revolt

    Post by Thomas on 2012-08-26, 22:21

    ^^ Well, if that's not a political statement, I don't know what is! Akuul, you gots to make a psychedelic garage rock song endorsing Putin himself. That would just be the tops.

    As for Sonder - get it out there. It's a game. Mazel tov and enjoy it, for chrissakes.

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    Re: SonderKommando Revolt

    Post by doomjedi on 2012-08-26, 22:27

    Yeah...I saw russian TV portrayal of Syria conflict....ouch. It's a media bubble like in China or North Korea.

    I don't want to offend my pal Akuul....but sometimes people need to stop "buying" the propaganda of a totalitaric media-controlling regime, like Putin's. Hope noone will come to arrest me now Smile
    The most dangerous mind manipulation - is the one you don't feel.

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    Re: SonderKommando Revolt

    Post by Dark_wizzie on 2012-08-27, 03:09

    !!!!!!!ARREST DOOMJEDID I AM SECRETLY PART OF THE KGB MUWHAHAHA!!!!!!!! Twisted Evil

    Wait, now my cover is blown.



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    Re: SonderKommando Revolt

    Post by doomjedi on 2012-08-27, 07:06

    We are all doomed....that's huliganism Smile

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    Re: SonderKommando Revolt

    Post by Akuul on 2012-08-27, 08:49

    Thomas and doomjedi

    Many countries have their own examples .. London court sent to prison for 16 months, Charlie Gilmour - the adopted son of Pink Floyd guitarist for the fact that he tore the flag from the monument to the fallen British soldiers and threw garbage in the police car. Publicist Avigdor Eskin writes that in 1997, an Israeli court sentenced painter Tatiana Soskin to two years in prison for production of cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad, who is putting up in the Arab part of Hebron. In 2006, the people of Berlin was sentenced to nine months in jail for what he interfere with the church service at the Cologne Cathedral. That is, it must be admitted that the state will always defend their ideology, their power. Therefore, Russian politicians are not alone.
    @Thomas wrote:..Akuul, you gots..
    Goths? I wonder why such a conclusion? No I'm not a Goth ..
    Exactly the same as I am not a punk, hippie, or some other representative of the youth subculture.

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    Re: SonderKommando Revolt

    Post by doomjedi on 2012-08-27, 09:32

    Well, I don't try to say other regimes are saints...in Israel woman can be arrested for putting a talit while praying at the Western Wall.... in Jerusalem policeman interfered a concert when male (!) singer took his shirt off (!) on stage....

    As we're not living under "Putin's" media control - as an outsiders, I can try to explain what bothers the World so much (beside general anto-freedom direction of forbidding gay parades for next hundred (!!) years....when even in Iran they didn't pass such a law for 100 years ahead, and even in religious Israel we have gay parades, including in Jerusalem)
    ...so here is goes....in random order.

    1. General brutal anti-opposition actions on every demonstration or protest, arresting...including of Kasparov and such. Anti-democracy. So this is seen in a wider context of simular actions in the past, a policy.
    2. Unproportional punishment...especially for mothers with small children.
    3. Fast verdict, speed-court...also noone believes in Russia count system of being free in their decisions and being able to go against Putin.
    4. "Huliganism" - is a wide, general and anti-democratic accusation you use when you can't find anything else to accusee your rival of - and used in many countries to suppress political opponents or rivals - for decades.
    5. Feeling of the outcome being very different if their "provocational target" was an opposition leader or some other person, even famous and important - and not Putin
    6.... I can go on.... Smile

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    Re: SonderKommando Revolt

    Post by Akuul on 2012-08-27, 11:46

    @doomjedi wrote:..direction of forbidding gay parades for next hundred (!!) years...
    I am not hostile to gays. And yet I think that the parades are not needed. Precisely so as not to sell firearms in Russia or legalize soft drugs. Maybe in 100 years this is can be resolved.
    @doomjedi wrote:..1. General brutal anti-opposition actions on every demonstration or protest, arresting...including of Kasparov and such. Anti-democracy. So this is seen in a wider context of simular actions in the past, a policy.
    Many people who do not like the current government in Russia is not perceived as Kasporova policy. Many believe that it is better if he engaged in the business that is playing chess. But that is another story ..
    @doomjedi wrote:..2. Unproportional punishment...especially for mothers with small children.
    A woman who takes part in group sex being in the ninth month of pregnancy is not associated as a mother
    .
    Apologies for the link .. but this figure is needed ..
    http://v-retvizan2.livejournal.com/81515.html
    .
    By the way some of the reviews on the girl child as a shield enjoyed dragging the baby in the next campaign. By the way some of the reviews on the girl child as a shield enjoyed dragging the baby in the next campaign.
    @doomjedi wrote:..3. Fast verdict, speed-court...also noone believes in Russia count system of being free in their decisions and being able to go against Putin.
    4. "Huliganism" - is a wide, general and anti-democratic accusation you use when you can't find anything else to accusee your rival of - and used in many countries to suppress political opponents or rivals - for decades.
    5. Feeling of the outcome being very different if their "provocational target" was an opposition leader or some other person, even famous and important - and not Putin
    6.... I can go on.... Smile
    I can agree with the following - Society and the state had to respond to such shares as soon as they started. But along with that if left unchecked "punk prayer" PR then the next time they could do something more scandalous. And given the past (such as the burning police car and smashed windows in the restaurant McDonalds) the next action of these "artists" could pass under the roar of dynamite.
    ..
    "Huliganism"? Sorry .. but what other word you can find? Okay, I can understand when the post-election protests were held .. But here?
    .
    http://tverdyi-znak.livejournal.com/892294.html
    .
    Where is the policy take? A simple self-promotion ..
    which by the way has brought these people some income ..


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    Re: SonderKommando Revolt

    Post by doomjedi on 2012-08-27, 12:21

    @Akuul wrote:
    I am not hostile to gays. And yet I think that the parades are not needed. Precisely so as not to sell firearms in Russia or legalize soft drugs. Maybe in 100 years this is can be resolved.
    You don't get how wierd it looks from the outside...
    I can bet you cannot even predict how Russia will look 10 years from now....and yet you make a law for a 100 years...This is funny. And sad....and Funny....and sad...
    If every law of the past century was made for a 100 years...I wonder how the world would look like today Smile

    Being Gay is genetic. And yet the "message" is - you do not exist....you do...but we don't want to know...we don't want others to know... You don't exist for us.
    You and Iran in the same pack - Ahmadinejad said "In Iran there are no gays".
    Smile Smile Smile
    LOL

    And given the past (such as the burning police car and smashed windows in the restaurant McDonalds)
    Am I the only one not threatened/impressed/shocked with smashing a glass window in McDonalds? What will they do next? Smash window of Burger King?
    This is kind of thing 5-year old would do, breaking school window with a stone.
    Yes, this is something that should be punished. But this is not a threat to the society.
    ..
    "Huliganism"? Sorry .. but what other word you can find? Okay, I can understand when the post-election protests were held .. But here?
    Huliganism is doing anything that THOSE IN POWER can claim as "offensive" to general public, in behalf of the public.
    I wonder how many of this "public" would actually find it offensive or threatening.

    doomjedi
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    Re: SonderKommando Revolt

    Post by doomjedi on 2012-08-27, 12:25

    We have a good example - a Church making laws for 2000 years.....don't see the benefit. Those "laws" drag us back into dark times and prevent progress.
    As we evolve - so our morals and ethics.
    Look even to our recent history.
    Only not so long time ago gay couldn't be openly gay etc......


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    Re: SonderKommando Revolt

    Post by Akuul on 2012-08-27, 14:30

    @doomjedi wrote:I can bet you cannot even predict how Russia will look 10 years from now....and yet you make a law for a 100 years..
    I think nothing bad will happen. Russia has always had a lot of people adhering to conservative and radical politicians in power will not come.
    @doomjedi wrote:This is kind of thing 5-year old would do, breaking school window with a stone.
    Those whom I spoke long grown out of childhood. They understand that their actions are punished. So you can not call them a harmless joke shares. The rest would be repeated - there are appropriate forms of protest. Similarly, there is also a lot of artists whose imagination is not confined to sex in public places ..
    .
    Photos and videos of different stocks. Including sex in the roof of the car in the street.
    http://halfaman.livejournal.com/117570.html?thread=703810
    .
    And it is not very clear why some outsiders write to revolutionaries. Indeed, in principle, these "rebels" can be found near any disco-bar in the morning after drinking, when visitors go home.
    @doomjedi wrote:I wonder how many of this "public" would actually find it offensive or threatening.
    There are many people who believe that girls Pussy Riot lucky.
    That is a lot of people were expecting from the court more hard punishment.
    Whether regarded by many people as a threat to Pussy Riot campaign? I think that the wave of vandalism that took place in some cities for itself says.
    @doomjedi wrote:We have a good example - a Church making laws for 2000 years.....don't see the benefit. ..
    In the entire history of mankind was created many laws but the world is not a better place. So the church is not to blame .. Besides, let's not forget that the church is still millions of believers. And many of them are scientists, engineers, teachers, etc. That is a lot of ordinary people.

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    Re: SonderKommando Revolt

    Post by Tragos2d on 2012-08-31, 04:39

    Well this got off topic a bit.

    One last bit about Sonder. Honestly Postal 2 or the GTA games are way more offensive. Sonders setting deals with the Holocaust, (understandingly a sensitive subject) but those who rush to pass judgment need to look in the mirror. Any sensible educated person can rationally see what Sonder actually is. Drawing conclusions on something you fail to understand makes your argument invalid. If you protest something at least dig up some credible evidence to back your theories. You say tomato, I say tomahto it's infinitely endless and pointless to debate such things. People who want to waste their lives fighting such trivial matters in the end only hurt themselves with such close minded logic.

    It's up to the rest of the world to see that extremists from both ends of the spectrum don't bring us down with them. This is why I feel its important to release Sonder. To show that you are above the "IDIOCY" that they represent. No artist should be ridiculed or picked apart for what they create. Unfortunately until the media takes an honest stand and develops some ethics it might be best for Sonder to sit quietly aside (but not forgotten) until the time is right. Only "DoomJedi" can make that decision.

    I sincerely believe that the media only exists to add fuel to the fire. Unbiased media is only a pipe dream. Television seriously pollutes people's mind which I why I prefer minimal exposure. It's much better ranting and discussing issues with strangers on the internet. Very Happy

    This song makes me think of SonderKommando Revolt @1:30
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=TwITvXWI-Ds&feature=endscreen

    "When liberty died
    And truth was denied
    Sent away on train on a one-way trip to hell
    Enter the gates - Auschwitz awaits!

    When freedom burns
    The final solution
    Dreams fade away and all hope turns to dust
    When millions burn
    The curtain has fallen
    Lost to the world as they perish in flames

    There was a country in despair
    There was a nation in recession
    One man finding reasons everywhere
    Then there was raising hate and anger
    The Fuhrer's orders still apply
    Who was to be blamed and send to die!"


    Powerful stuff. Especially if you like this style of music. <3



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    Re: SonderKommando Revolt

    Post by doomjedi on 2012-08-31, 10:49

    Thank you very much Smile

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